Luohan Quan

[LFJ]

I think if Zhu Tianxi in fact has another complete Luohan system learned from Shi Degen separate from Liu Zhenhai's, then that would show Shi Degen had two different yet related Luohan systems (different students of Shi Degen testifying Liu's as Degen's 18 road system). It may well be a Xiyuan & Nanyuan situation as RDH said is possible.

I know Shi Zhenxu had some Luohanquan, but nothing I've seen/learned is outside Liu Zhenhai's material and the 8 road "Luohan Shiba Shou", as far as boxing sets. We do have a rare Luohan partner set and a very rare bead set that is unmistakably Luohan, with full-lying 'sleeping arhat' postures, which I have seen nowhere else. Both of these were revived just a year and half ago.

[LFJ]

@SHemmati,

I think you are still stuck on several parts RDH tried to explain earlier that should be made clear. Here's a breakdown:

1) Jintong Xiaoluohanquan is an extract of the long set (LZH 3+4+5).

2) This "Daluohanquan" and Refined Luohanquan are the same (54 posture set). Both are the Jintong Xiaoluohanquan above with Paoquan techniques added to extend it for competition. There is even more to it (more than 54) than shown in these two clips, but they are all the same thing called Erlu because it is from LZH 3+4+5 (Yilu to this being LZH 1+2, from which the 27 posture set is an extract, like Jintong was from LZH 3+4+5).

(There are people who remember when this construction was taking place only a couple decades ago.)

3) The classic "Daluohanquan" in Dengfeng that every traditional school has is the same as the Luohanquan yilu shown by Zhang Shijie from start to finish, just the direction changes toward the end. They are just different versions of the same set.


Therefore,

1) Your 27 and 54 posture Luohanquan sets are extracts and extensions of extracts (Jintong) from the 18 road system presented by Liu Zhenhai, taught by Shi Degen.

2) Shi Yongwen's book breaks the 54 posture poem into two sections of 36 and 18. The first 36 is the Jintong extract from LZH 3+4+5, and the 18 is the extension to it, same as the "refined" set. There is more to the competition extension, but it is called Erlu because it is from LZH 3+4+5 (Yilu being LZH 1+2 from which the 27 was extracted).

3) Shi Yongwen's first set is the 27 posture extract from LZH 1+2, with an extension just like Jintong as an extract from LZH 3+4+5 was extended to the 54 and longer competition set.

4) Then there is the classic Dengfeng Daluohanquan/Zhang Shijie yilu which are two versions of the same set. The Dengfeng version was possibly taught by Li Genseng, and the Zhang Shijie version was taught by Shi Degen. This set is like a broad snapshot of technique from the full system shown by Liu Zhenhai. It was likely constructed as a long set to spread to the public who wouldn't be able to learn the full system, for the same reason Shi Degen spread Guanchaoquan from the larger Zhaoyangquan system which was inherited in full by Shi Yongwen.

5) The above 18 road Luohanquan system was definitely taught by Shi Degen because several of his students (Liu Zhenhai, Wang Xigan, Shi Yongwen) have it, or at least its extracts.


6) Then there are the other sets Zhu Tianxi has and that are spoken of also by Shi Yongwen, with different Luohan personalities. This may be a separate 18 road Luohanquan system that Shi Degen taught to them in addition to the above more common system with all its extracts and extensions. This other system probably really starts with "Road 2", since "Road 1" is the snapshot of the above system.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Many years ago, when I was corresponding with people who were speaking to Shi Dejian and orthers for me when the Shaolin Encyclopedia first came out, I was told that indeed, this was the case:

4) Then there is the classic Dengfeng Daluohanquan/Zhang Shijie yilu which are two versions of the same set. The Dengfeng version was possibly taught by Li Genseng, and the Zhang Shijie version was taught by Shi Degen. This set is like a broad snapshot of technique from the full system shown by Liu Zhenhai. It was likely constructed as a long set to spread to the public who wouldn't be able to learn the full system, for the same reason Shi Degen spread Guanchaoquan from the larger Zhaoyangquan system which was inherited in full by Shi Yongwen.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's more video of Shi Degen's Luohan system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mkXKnH9B-E - Yi Lu


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAAi39GwjeU - San Lu

[SHemmati]

oh yeah yeah, i'd got them all. but just keep in mind, don't mix the old luohan quan and the 18 luohan quan(s).

[LFJ]

oh yeah yeah, i'd got them all. but come down guys, those was from technical point of view, not historical.

It's even recent history. Are you just ignoring the fact that there are people who remember the construction of sets just a couple decades ago? We have to stay objective.

you are attributing everything to Degen! then where is Miaoxing's Luohan quan?

Attributing? No one said he created the system or was the only one to teach it, but in the Dengfeng area the most popular Luohan material is from this Luohan system which Shi Degen definitely taught. Obviously a lot of people had it.

another illogical thing you insist on is about Da Luohan quan. i thought it was evident! but seems is not, since you still talk of that 54 posture and DengFeng one as two totally different things and also talk about Degen's 1lu as Da Luohan! btw, i'll prepare the technical analysis of Encylopedia's big Luohan, which is the full 3-road form of that DengFeng Da Luohan. that post will clear up such things.

Basically there are two sets here- a public set, and a competition set. They obviously share technical similarities because they come from the same technique base. A comparison isn't necessary. We know the construction was recent enough for people to remember.

[LFJ]

I had my previous suspicion confirmed by my shishu (who is currently in Shaolin bringing back some material at the request of the monastery) regarding the identity of this style. It is indeed the Kanjiaquan of Nanyuan Tongbeiquan (btw, he uses the bei character for this, but bi for the Renshou Tongbiquan showing they are also from different periods/origins as I suspected).

The old name in the local tradition is Xiaosihui (4 small rounds), which is four shoufa in one huihe (round), four rounds in total. It was later just called Luohan Shiba Shou because it has 18 postures. So it is just by namesake.

However, there is only this one set. The others in the encyclopedia are from external sources that have the same name, so they were lumped together. Hence, only the first set in the 8 is like Nanyuan Tongbeiquan.

But still, the others I find are similar to Renshou Tongbiquan and the 13 Kanjiaquan sets, but they are not from the same source. Renshou Tongbiquan is also part of Shi Zhenxu's heritage, but not these other roads of Luohan Shiba Shou. So, I assume they must be from the same line as the 13 road Kanjiaquan system from Shi Sufa, shown by Shi Dejun. They are in fact much more similar to that than to Renshou Tongbiquan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I had my previous suspicion confirmed by my shishu (who is currently in Shaolin bringing back some material at the request of the monastery) regarding the identity of this style. It is indeed the Kanjiaquan of Nanyuan Tongbeiquan (btw, he uses the bei character for this, but bi for the Renshou Tongbiquan showing they are also from different periods/origins as I suspected).

The old name in the local tradition is Xiaosihui (4 small rounds), which is four shoufa in one huihe (round), four rounds in total. It was later just called Luohan Shiba Shou because it has 18 postures. So it is just by namesake.

However, there is only this one set. The others in the encyclopedia are from external sources that have the same name, so they were lumped together. Hence, only the first set in the 8 is like Nanyuan Tongbeiquan.

But still, the others I find are similar to Renshou Tongbiquan and the 13 Kanjiaquan sets, but they are not from the same source. Renshou Tongbiquan is also part of Shi Zhenxu's heritage, but not these other roads of Luohan Shiba Shou. So, I assume they must be from the same line as the 13 road Kanjiaquan system from Shi Sufa, shown by Shi Dejun. They are in fact much more similar to that than to Renshou Tongbiquan.

Good to know. What I am most interested in is how Yin Fu Bagua Zhang style got all the main moves and animals from these 8 sets, so that means also that they were together as 8 roads of 18 Luohan for a very long time.


By the way, in the 8 Roads sets, there are no punches, it is all done with the flat willow hand, which is the Ox Tongue Hand in Yinfu style Bagua Zhang.

In the 8 Roads, there is unicorn, bear, and all the other animals found in YinFu Bagua, but not in any other Shaolin sets.

Also, there are special postures found in Bagua Zhang circle walking not found in other Shaolin sets either.

[Sal Canzonieri]

seems every form has a different position in different sects. in core Shaolin temple materials, they consider it the first pugilistic form, whose 18 techniques, before being evolved into a pugilistic art, have been a Qigong set, derived from the older sets, like Shaolin Ba Duan Jin. so they call it 'xian tian Luohan/Damo 18 Shou,' where the name implies it has been the first martial set. Luohan/Damo is a religious aspect, the set has been created much after Damo. there's a manual of the set when it has been a Qigong set, before being evolved to a pugilistic set (notice the Ba Duan Jin and Yi Jin Jing like postures, and also compare it with Deyang's form and look how Shaolin martial arts have emerged out of ancient Qigong sets):

先天罗汉拳十八手图势

this manual has been published in 1926, when headmonk Miaoxing broke the ancient traditions and let the documents go out of the temple and be accessible to the public. just i can't read the Chinese text, it must have valuable notes. anyway, many manuals of Shaolin temple kung fu had copies in other temples and families. i don't know where this one comes from.

I recognize this qigong set as Luohan Qigong sometimes known with other names.

But this isn't related to the 8 Roads of 18 Luohan set LFJ is talking about above.

[LFJ]

Good to know. What I am most interested in is how Yin Fu Bagua Zhang style got all the main moves and animals from these 8 sets, so that means also that they were together as 8 roads of 18 Luohan for a very long time.

I don't know, but in our sect it is just the one road. Coincidentally, my shishu also does Baguazhang. I don't know what branch, but I'll ask what he knows.

[Xian]

Good to know. What I am most interested in is how Yin Fu Bagua Zhang style got all the main moves and animals from these 8 sets, so that means also that they were together as 8 roads of 18 Luohan for a very long time.


By the way, in the 8 Roads sets, there are no punches, it is all done with the flat willow hand, which is the Ox Tongue Hand in Yinfu style Bagua Zhang.

In the 8 Roads, there is unicorn, bear, and all the other animals found in YinFu Bagua, but not in any other Shaolin sets.

Also, there are special postures found in Bagua Zhang circle walking not found in other Shaolin sets either.

I just have started training Bagua. My Bagua teacher told me that Yinfu studied Luohan Boxing before learning Bagua. But I have to ask him when I got the chance If he was told this by his teacher as part of the oral history taught to him or If he found this out in his research.

Your description is interesting it reminds me somehow of the introduction style of his teachers Tang Lang Style. Its one long form which is taught after a 10 road Tan Tui and a very extensive Basic Training. It has a lot in common with Bagua.




Best regards,
Shin

[SHemmati]

...so that means also that they were together as 8 roads of 18 Luohan for a very long time.

the Encyclopedia has the historical timeline as such:

Sui dynasty (581-618): the 18 posture Qigong set were developed;

Tang dynasty (618-907): those 18 postures had developed into 18 pugilistic postures until this time, then the 18 pugilistic postures were developed into a form (tao lu);

Song dynasty (960-1279): it was developed into 36 postures until early Song dynasty;

Jin-Yuan dynasty (1115-1368): it was developed into 173 postures by Jue Yuan and others;

Ming dynasty (1368-1644): it was developed into 18 sets of 324 postures total, every set having 18 postures.

and now, the Encyclopedia has 8 sets, every set having 18 postures!

[LFJ]

and of the final 18 sets, the Encyclopedia has 8 sets, every set having 18 postures!

(to the readers: these are the 18 roads of Luohan 18 Shou, not to be confused with Lao/Xiao/Da sets and the 18 roads of Luohan quan.)

The Encyclopedia doesn't actually say that though! It just gives an introduction to an 18 road Luohan system. Then it shows 9 roads of things we know not to be related.

If you take everything written in the Encyclopedia as historically accurate, then you must take the Huaquan style Luohan Shiba Shou as the 9th road of an 18 road series, but we know that not to be the case.

We also know now through confirmation of an inheritor of Shi Zhenxu's heritage, and from looking at the techniques, the 1st road is also different from the style of the remaining 7 roads.

These were lumped together because they share the same name. That's all. The Encyclopedia doesn't say these are the first 8 or 9 roads of the 18 road system it described in the introduction.

i read it's the 18-posture Qigong set based on which 'xian tian Luohan 18 Shou,' which is the 1st one in those 18 sets, were developed. and hence this Qigong set is since called 'xian tian Luohan quan 18 Shou!' i don't know! so you say this is not the case?!

Where did you read that exactly, that the particular set shown in the encyclopedia is the 1st of 18 roads and is what came from that qigong set? There are a lot of carelessly written books, but I think you are also reading connections into where you think something is implied but they never actually say that.

[LFJ]

one resource i can say for now, Deyang in his series, quotes from Shaolin temple manuals that the set he demonstrates, which is Encyclopedia's 1st road, is the one created from those Qigong sets, and tells the story from those manuals he mentions until even creation of Xiao Luohan quan and later other sets from that. he, but, doesn't mention other developments. other resources all say the same so far as i've read. that's all i get my information from!

Yes, that is the common legend of the evolution of Luohanquan, which may be true. The only thing is, this set is not Luohan at all, only by namesake. It is not related to the rest of Luohanquan.

On other videos in the series all he does is give the common legends, not actually history. He says for example, that Taizu Changquan was created and taught by Zhao Kuangyin himself. This is the common legend repeated, but not the actual history of the set.

Of course he is not going to say the actual identity of this set. In the past they didn't even teach it openly to students.

[LFJ]

about those 8 sets, yes, though each of them has 18 postures, as expected, still they may be different from those 18. this is not a reliable thing. (i modified that sentence.)

Well, sure. That's why they are named Luohan Shiba Shou. That was the case for Xiaosihui at least, and the Huaquan Luohan Shiba Shou is also 18 postures, but not even from Shaolin.