Luohan Quan

[RenDaHai]

Hey Shemmati,

You are right, the Luohan on P.188 is the same one. I think we agreed on this before though...

But good comparison. Its just a slightly shorter version of the set.

There are 2 famous Luohan quans that appear everywhere. But after that every sect tends to disagree on Luohan QUan and it is a common name and there are very many different versions.

I Can't really see commonality between ChaShou Luohan (Lao Luohan/Xiao Luohan) and Da Luohan and I think they may be from different eras and ChaShou is certainly a more interesting set technically. ( Called Cha shou because of the crossed hands typical in this set. My version contains 9 crossed hands postures and you will find most versions contain a few).

As un update to the Luohan thread;

I still can't find the guy in green..... or who he is..... or which sect this Luohan belongs too. I am somewhat less interested in this style now, but I still feel the need to find who this guy is.

[SHemmati]

some mistake about shaolin luohan quan occurs almost everywhere. there are at least 2 different, yet related, luohan quan systems in shaolin:

1. the original old (lao) luohan quan, which has just 2 forms, the small luohan and the big luohan. it is said in the legends that this luohan quan system has been directly inspired from the luohan statues at Shaolin temple; this system is recognized by its unique luohan-imitating Buddhist postures and moves. i suppose this is the luohan quan that abbot Miaoxing learned from abbot Henglin and taught it extensively to monks and his lay disciples.

2. the 18 luohan quan(s), which are originally based on the old small and big luohan quans combined with other forms and extended up to 18 forms, one form for each of the 18 luohan characters, like the angry luohan, the deceitful luohan, barefoot luohan, long-eyebrow luohan, drunken luohan, etc. in contrast, these forms don't have the luohan Buddhist look of the old luohan. monk Degen taught (some different forms of) these luohan quan(s) to his disciples Liu Zhenhai, monk Yongwen, and Zhu Tianxi.

there are also several luohan combat sets of 108 or more combat methods. one should not mix up these luohan quans with one another.

[SHemmati]

based on the previous post, i've tried to distinguish the luohan quan forms:

small luohan quan, it has about 27 postures/36 moves in its original form, it's the same form that monk Deyang does, the first form of the encyclopedia. there are many videos for it.

big luohan quan, it's originally called jin tong xiao luohan (golden-child small luohan), it has about 36 postures in its original form, Liu Zhenhai has a video of it and this is a video clip of it (see all 3 parts of the video). as mentioned, a last part has been added to extend it, as you see in monk Dejun's and Deci's big luohan quan. this last part is not part of the old luohan quan, has no luohan posture or move, it's irrelevant.


another version of these small and big luohan quans are also practiced under the same names in Dengfeng area around shaolin. the difference is that these Dengfeng versions, as we already saw in the encyclopedia's small luohan quan, miss some core luohan postures and moves of the old luohan quan and have some sequences of moves added or removed. monk Degen used these forms as you see in Liu Zhenhai's 1st luohan quan, which is the Dengfeng version of small luohan quan, and in Zhu Tianxi's (Zhang Shijie's) 1st luohan quan, which is the Dengfeng version of big luohan quan. you'll find other videos of these versions by searching small and big luohan quan names.

[SHemmati]

Liu Zhenhai's luohan quan:

Liu Zhenhai's VCDs are supposed to be parts of an 18 luohan quan system. the 1st form (YouTube) is the Dengfeng small luohan form, the 2nd form (YouTube) is an unknown thing. the 3rd+4th+5th forms (YouTube) are the Dengfeng big luohan quan extnded by a number of intermediary moves and an ending. the sequence and structure of the postures and shen fa (body moves) are something between the old big luohan (jin tong xiao luohan) and Dengfeng's style (read my previous comment). in the 3rd VCD everything goes almost well like Dengfeng's version, the 4th one also goes well but adds an end like pao quan, in beginnings of the 5th VCD, exactly where we expect it, there is the luohan listening to sutra (sword hands to the ears) posture, which is the next luohan posture following the previous parts in jin tong luohan. in this VCD we also see the other following moves of jin tong luohan quan, but in a different order and with some additional sequences of moves added. for example, the 3 slap kicks of the very end of jin tong luohan quan come in beginning of this VCD, displaced to before the luohan listening to sutra posture; and most interestingly, the extended whip arms in horse stance posture that follows these 3 kicks in the modern, extended version of big luohan quan comes in this VCD as well, just after these 3 slap kicks, to make sure that we are going through an extended big luohan form. this VCD ends with a right fist guarded by the left one in right gong bu (like Shi Deci's last part), then he crouches down to jump up for the final kick combo and it ends. Liu Zhenhai is simply teaching an extended version of Dengfeng small luohan quan in his 1st&2nd forms, and an extended version of Dengfeng big luohan quan in his 3rd+4th+5th forms.

[SHemmati]

update:
Miaoxing, in 1928, together with the manual of the 72 secret arts of Shaolin temple and some other handwritten manuals, has given a copy of Shaolin temple's luohan quan manual to his disciple Jin Jingzhong (金警钟)--usually called Jin En Zhong (金恩忠), in the Shaolin encyclopedia for example. Jingzhong has said that he has published that manual as a book. Shaolin Encyclopedia has also mentioned this in pages 270-271 of vol.1. if found, this book will show us Miaoxing's version.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Excellent work SHemmati, very good research.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Some comments that come to mind:

Shi Degen learned Taizu Quan first, which is where the Hong Quan/Rou Quan/Tongbi Quan influence must come from. Taizu Quan legend is that it had 18 Lu (roads), perhaps Degen took all he know and created the 18 Roads Louhan sets himself. I think so. That is my hunch.

Liu Zhenhai's Shaolin Quan book shows a rather complete 108 Luohan Quan set. It is almost the same, but more coherent than the Tagou 4 volume set that shows a Da Luohan set. Liu's version has many more movements and appears to fix holes in the Tagou book's version.

I think I have videos of the first 5 or 6 roads of Shi Degen's 18 Road Luohan, performed by a student of Zhu Tianxi.

[Sal Canzonieri]

What needs further research from what I first started long ago is the Shaolin 18 Hands Luohan Quan set that so many practice, also as a two man set.
It actually is originally from Luoyang, coming in from people that were originally from Shantung province. It is actually part of Hua Quan there.
It has a lot in common with Xingyi Quan, which originally was from Luoyang too.

[LFJ]

Something interesting RDH mentioned the other day. He suggested the Luohan Shiba Shou yilu (1 of 8) that Shi Deyang does and the LHSBS aka. Damo SBS that Shi Dejian and others do are different manifestations of the same thing.

Looking closely at the techniques within, I agree. It may be difficult to see if you aren't familiar with one or the other, but they are the same thing.

They start with switching cross hands to the front, Fuzi Gongshou (salute) then Baihu Xilian (white tiger washes face) , then Nili Bacong ("pulling scallions from the mud", aka. shushen). Toward the middle they have a 360 turn and 'brush' the thighs, Yema Fenzong ("wild horse parts mane"). There are other similarities throughout, following the same pattern.

Still, it is just road 1 of 8. I haven't seen anyone do the others. Wonder who might still have all 8 roads.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Something interesting RDH mentioned the other day. He suggested the Luohan Shiba Shou yilu (1 of 8) that Shi Deyang does and the LHSBS aka. Damo SBS that Shi Dejian and others do are different manifestations of the same thing.

Looking closely at the techniques within, I agree. It may be difficult to see if you aren't familiar with one or the other, but they are the same thing.

They start with switching cross hands to the front, Fuzi Gongshou (salute) then Baihu Xilian (white tiger washes face) , then Nili Bacong ("pulling scallions from the mud", aka. shushen). Toward the middle they have a 360 turn and 'brush' the thighs, Yema Fenzong ("wild horse parts mane"). There are other similarities throughout, following the same pattern.

Still, it is just road 1 of 8. I haven't seen anyone do the others. Wonder who might still have all 8 roads.

I was given a published manual that documented all 8 roads. I will get you the ISBN number if it has one. Interestingly, Road 1 is easily the Single, Double, and 3rd Palm change of Bagua Zhang style. It follows very exact. I compared both in tables and charts in my forthcoming book.
And Yin Fu style bagua Zhang overlaps greatly with material from these 8 roads. They share animal names for postures that ONLY appear in these Shaolin Luohan Shiba Shou sets, such as bear and unicorn.

yeah, agreed Shi dejian's Damo SBS is pretty the same stuff.

[LFJ]

Cool. I'd like to see it. Knowing the author may help in tracking it down some place where it can be learned in full. It sounds like your book is getting pretty thick by now.

[LFJ]

Interestingly, Road 1 is easily the Single, Double, and 3rd Palm change of Bagua Zhang style.

Referring to what exactly? For example, Xianren Zhaiqie (Immortal Picks Eggplant), upper arm horizontal, lower hand palm up entrance? I see that in the palm changes.

In LHSBS yilu it is followed by Nili Bacong (Pulling Scallions from the Mud), aka. shushen. That double move also appears in Nanyuan Datongbiquan sanlu. (Been focusing on my TBQ recently) Basically, it is an intercepting entrance on the opponent to reach close-range and shutdown their arms/strike, then knockdown.

[Kellen Bassette]

I learned a coupe Louhan Shiba Shou forms...they were pretty short, if we're talking about the same forms...I thought I read somewhere they were created in the 70's. Is that true?

[Xian]

I learned a coupe Louhan Shiba Shou forms...they were pretty short, if we're talking about the same forms...I thought I read somewhere they were created in the 70's. Is that true?

No they were talking about the 18 Luohan Quan Roads not the Shibashou



Best regards,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

Hey Sal,

Yeah the very common 18 shou with the dui lian set, that is not shaolin, it is hua quan. But for some reason it has been absorbed.

Also BaBu lian huan quan is the same.

Then we have HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou, This was a popular set taught to people accross China, I suspect it may not be Shaolin temple,

Then we have the 8 road luohan 18 shou, THis the first road has an alternative name, 'small 4 rounds' It is from Zhen Xu and his nanyuan sect. There are a lot of versions though in ZhenXus sect it is called 4 rounds, not 18 shou. I have never seen the others except in the encyclopedia, i thought I saw one once but it may have been another version of road 1.

Then we have another 18 SHI (not shou). This is the one I learned form my master. it is in a book by LZH and WangXiGan. This I assume must be the Xi yuan 18 shou. It is the most spectacular of the sets visually and contains very interesting technques.


Sal, I also have my suspicions about the 18 road luohan.