Luohan Quan

[Sal Canzonieri]

Cool. I'd like to see it. Knowing the author may help in tracking it down some place where it can be learned in full. It sounds like your book is getting pretty thick by now.

少林罗汉十八手: 德虔 ISBN：7-81003-305-0

Obviously it was written by the late Shi Deqian, curator of the Shaolin Encyclopedia.
But looking through it, all of it is in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, I see it in all 3 editions.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I learned a coupe Louhan Shiba Shou forms...they were pretty short, if we're talking about the same forms...I thought I read somewhere they were created in the 70's. Is that true?

I have seen those, they are not the Luohan 18 Shou set of 8 Routines.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Referring to what exactly? For example, Xianren Zhaiqie (Immortal Picks Eggplant), upper arm horizontal, lower hand palm up entrance? I see that in the palm changes.

In LHSBS yilu it is followed by Nili Bacong (Pulling Scallions from the Mud), aka. shushen. That double move also appears in Nanyuan Datongbiquan sanlu. (Been focusing on my TBQ recently) Basically, it is an intercepting entrance on the opponent to reach close-range and shutdown their arms/strike, then knockdown.

The first section of Yi Lu can be mapped to the Single, Double, and Smooth Palm changes, which are known as the Lao Zhang, Old Palms, being the 3 that were first taught by Dong Haichuan, the other palm changes were added by his students, esp Chen and Yin Fu.

From Double Praying Hands to Pulling Palm, from Posture 1 to Posture 7.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal,

Yeah the very common 18 shou with the dui lian set, that is not shaolin, it is hua quan. But for some reason it has been absorbed.

Also BaBu lian huan quan is the same.

Then we have HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou, This was a popular set taught to people accross China, I suspect it may not be Shaolin temple,

Then we have the 8 road luohan 18 shou, THis the first road has an alternative name, 'small 4 rounds' It is from Zhen Xu and his nanyuan sect. There are a lot of versions though in ZhenXus sect it is called 4 rounds, not 18 shou. I have never seen the others except in the encyclopedia, i thought I saw one once but it may have been another version of road 1.

Then we have another 18 SHI (not shou). This is the one I learned form my master. it is in a book by LZH and WangXiGan. This I assume must be the Xi yuan 18 shou. It is the most spectacular of the sets visually and contains very interesting technques.


Sal, I also have my suspicions about the 18 road luohan.

Well, somewhere in Luoyang, Xingi Quan and this Luohan 18 Hands set became interrelated. The postural movements in the 18 Luohan Hands set (from Hua Quan) is essentially the same as the Five Elements sets AND the Animals from Xingyi Quan! In the Hua Quan's 18 Luohan Hands set: The first move is Metal (Pi quan), second is water (Zhuan Quan), the third is Wood (Bang Quan), the fourth is fire (Pao Quan), and the fifth is Earth (Heng Quan).
Also, there is Eagle, Tiger, Dragon, Hawk, etc etc. from the 10 / 12 animals of XYQ in embedded in the postural movements of this Hua Quan Luohan set. I can map them easily.

All you have to do is change the Shen Fa of this Hua Quan set and it becomes XYQ.

Same as as the first road of the 8 routines of Luohan Shiba Shou, just change the Shen Fa and it can be done as Bagua Zhang. The rest of the 8 Lu can be changed into Yin Fu BQZ without altering the sequance, just the Shen Fa!

[Sal Canzonieri]

the book 少林拳/少林拳丛书
isbn 7810032364

has a set called Er Lu Xiao Jia Shi Ba Shou that I would like to find out its origins or connections to the other Shaolin Luohan sets.

[Sal Canzonieri]

from my book: info about true origin of Shaolin Louhan 18 hands set (two man set) and Ba Bu Lian Huan set:

Luoyang is known for many martial arts styles. One such style that existed there from before Ji Longfeng’s time is called the ‘Long Men’ (龍門) – ‘Dragon’s Gate or School’ from Shanxi, which is now practiced in Luoyang within the ‘Zhong Hua Si Mian Ba Fang Tong Bei Quan’ system. Long Men ancestor Wang Jiang (with his four apprentices), practiced this art secretly after coming to Jun Tun village (Luoyang), from Hongdong County (Shanxi Province) during the early Ming era (around 1300). Thus, long before the formation of Xinyi Quan.

Later, the next generation (consisting of Wang Leng Zi, Wang Jia Zi, and Wang Er Jia) at some point exchanged some of their skills with boxers from Shandong Province. They practiced a Long Men set called ‘Long Men Quan’ (Dragon Gate Fist) that is also practiced with the same exact movements by the Cai family lineage of ‘Hua (華) Quan’ – ‘Glorious Boxing’ style, from Shandong province. This set is also practiced at Shaolin under the name ‘Luohan Shiba Shou’ – ‘Luohan 18 Hands’. It is a two person set. In the two person version of this routine, side 1 can be done with a staff, side 2 with a knife or sword. It features the animal postures seen in Shandong Hua Quan, such as Eagle, Monkey, Leopard, Tiger, Dragon, and others.

The opening five movements that correspond to these animals are very similar to the Five Elements movements of Pi Quan, Zhuan Quan, Beng Quan, Pao Quan, and Heng Quan, which are foundational to Xinyi Quan / Xingyi Quan. The first four postures correspond faithfully. Originally in ancient times there were only four elements used, much later Heng (earth) was added. In Xing Yi, Heng (earth) is supposed to be all the other elements together as one, so it is at the center of the four elements. This is true of the fifth and sixth postures, if done successively they indeed correspond to the movements of Heng (earth) Quan as well. The rest of the postures correspond well to Dragon, Tiger, Horse, Hawk, Swallow, and other animal movements seen in Xinyi and Xingyi. Being that this set, originally from Hua Quan of Shandong, has been practiced in Luoyang for a few hundred years before Ji Longfeng’s art reached Ma Xueli of Luoyang, and was preserved by local Luoyang Tongbei Quan practitioners, and strikingly shares some important attributes with the Henan and Shanxi Xinyi based martial arts, its calls for more serious research to explore any possible root relationship they share, especially since these styles all converge within Luoyang.

[LFJ]

Not really familiar with Baguazhang myself, but I've seen you mention that connection before, Sal. Sounds interesting. Would love to see a breakdown.

[RenDaHai]

Interesting,

Luoyangs Tong bei is famous locally, unfortunately I never got to study any.

I always kind of ignored that hua quan 18 shou and BaBu lian huan quan because I didn't think they fit in so well but after reading that I will give them another look, I still remember them just about. Thats cool to know!

[RenDaHai]

SO what do we know about Luohan 18 Shou now?

Hua Quan Luohan 18 shou --- prob most common, good but not Shaolin temples 18 shou,

HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou --- Unusual, not characteristic of Shaolin, prob. from outside

Zhen Xu Xuan tian Luohan 18 shou --- Also called small 4 rounds, damo 18 shou, Probably the 18 shou of the Nanyuan sect, 8 roads in total, so far we have books of the others but no performence, only the first road, not uncommon.

Luohan 18 shou --- in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiGan, Also practiced by me. Probably the Xiyuan pai version of the ancient set.

I think it is just these right? In which case there are not as many as we thought, Xiyuan sect has just 1 and Nanyuan has the 8 road set.

Total, 11 sets called Luohan 18 shou.

EDIT: In fact 12 sets, I have just remembered Shi Yan Zhuang Practiced a Luohan 18 shou that was nothing like any of the above, more qi gong like. This confuses matters.

[SHemmati]

first of all, thanks guys for the information on that 2-man set Luohan 18 Shou form. here's a video of He Jungang performing and instructing it as a Hua Quan master:

Hua Quan Luohan 18 Shou-2 person form (by He Jungang)

they call this form '18 Shou' because the first/main/lef-hand-side performer--the blue guy in this video, who is Jungang himself--uses 18 techniques throughout the form. the second/assistant/right-hand-side performer techniques are, however, something different. there's a book published on this form, which demonstrates the 18 techniques and the 2-person form in comprehensive detail.

though i know the form in much detail, but i've never been familiar with Hua Quan. just, i've always thought that the form, for both the performers cannot fit to the SongShan Shaolin system, not just because of the performance, but the technical content and its body movements (shen fa) follow a northern long-fist style career and don't seem like SongShan Shaolin principles! at least, this is what a non-knowledgeable practitioner like me can say on it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

first of all, thanks guys for the information on that 2-man set Luohan 18 Shou form. here's a video of He Jungang performing and instructing it as a Hua Quan master:

Hua Quan Luohan 18 Shou (by He Jungang)

they call this form '18 Shou' because the first/main/lef-hand-side performer--the blue guy in this video, who is Jungang himself--uses 18 techniques throughout the form. the second/assistant/right-hand-side performer techniques are, however, something different. there's a book published on this form, which demonstrates the 18 techniques and the 2-person form in comprehensive detail.

though i know the form in much detail, but i've never been familiar with Hua Quan. just, i've always thought that the form, for both the performers cannot fit to the SongShan Shaolin system, not just because of the performance, but the technical content and its body movements (shen fa) follow a northern long-fist style career and don't seem like SongShan Shaolin principles! at least, this is what a non-knowledgeable practitioner like me can say on it.

yeah, I have some books on these sets, both the single and two man versions, old books that don't have ISBN numbers. One book has the second side of the Babu Lian Huan set, for the 2 man version too. And a huge staff set that goes with these two sets. Most people didn't know till relatively recently that these sets are from Hua Quan originally and Shaolin adopted them.

The second side, which is very different from the first side (of the two man version) is a lot like Crazy Devil sets from Liuhe Quan in Shaolin.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ren, there are some videos out of some other Luohan 18 Hands sets, they are in the back area of the Shaolin Encyclopedia though.

[Sal Canzonieri]

SO what do we know about Luohan 18 Shou now?

Hua Quan Luohan 18 shou --- prob most common, good but not Shaolin temples 18 shou,

HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou --- Unusual, not characteristic of Shaolin, prob. from outside

Zhen Xu Xuan tian Luohan 18 shou --- Also called small 4 rounds, damo 18 shou, Probably the 18 shou of the Nanyuan sect, 8 roads in total, so far we have books of the others but no performence, only the first road, not uncommon.

Luohan 18 shou --- in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiGan, Also practiced by me. Probably the Xiyuan pai version of the ancient set.

I think it is just these right? In which case there are not as many as we thought, Xiyuan sect has just 1 and Nanyuan has the 8 road set.

Total, 11 sets called Luohan 18 shou.

EDIT: In fact 12 sets, I have just remembered Shi Yan Zhuang Practiced a Luohan 18 shou that was nothing like any of the above, more qi gong like. This confuses matters.

Yep, the Hua Quan 18 Louhan is from outside Shaolin and came in later, with Babu Liahuan Quan.

I don't know what the heck the HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou comes from. It is nothing like any Shaolin I have seen, I has to be from outside too.

The Luohan 18 shou --- in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiGan, is equally bizarre and not practiced at Shaolin anymore, it is only in the outside areas, like Dengfeng, etc. I is supposed to be from the 5 Animals system of Baiyufeng and Li Sou.

That leaves the Zhen Xu Xuan tian Luohan 18 shou, which seems to have the most important thing about it, it was a strong influence on Bagua Zhang, being the only possible connection to Dong Haichuan's Luohan Quan root that was often said of him.

[Xian]

Maybe he learned Luohan Quan before studying Bagua. In the past it was said that you are only allowed to learn Bagua, when you had mastered another Martial Art before. Some took their previous Martial Arts as a Basic Template to understand the Bagua and changed it a bit according to that.


Best regards,
Xian

[SHemmati]

luohan 18 hands has outstanding importance among all the Shaolin forms. it's said to be the oldest set of relics from the Sui dynasty (581-618) up to the Ming dynasty. monk Jue Yuan, Li Sou and Bai Yufeng developed the 18 techniques of original luohan 18 hands into 72, and then into 173 techniques, and Jue Yuan also made up some 18 Luohan system. these have happened much later than the Song dynasty before which the old luohan quan has been created. luohan quan is said to have been directly developed out of luohan 18 hands. just, the luohan 18 hands has got many (18, more or less) forms since these activities and the Ming dynasty. they don't mention any specific form of it.