Luohan Quan

[LFJ]

This may just be the best performance of Xiaoluohanquan I've ever seen, performed by Shi Deyang's nephew at last year's National Shaolinquan Tournament. Keeping the cameraman on his toes.

[RenDaHai]

Yep, the Hua Quan 18 Louhan is from outside Shaolin and came in later, with Babu Liahuan Quan.

I don't know what the heck the HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou comes from. It is nothing like any Shaolin I have seen, I has to be from outside too.

The Luohan 18 shou --- in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiGan, is equally bizarre and not practiced at Shaolin anymore, it is only in the outside areas, like Dengfeng, etc. I is supposed to be from the 5 Animals system of Baiyufeng and Li Sou.

That leaves the Zhen Xu Xuan tian Luohan 18 shou, which seems to have the most important thing about it, it was a strong influence on Bagua Zhang, being the only possible connection to Dong Haichuan's Luohan Quan root that was often said of him.

Agreed on Hua Quan and Hushanzi men

Well, I know the one by LZH and WXG is bizarre, but I know it was practiced in Shaolin pre 1928 but it is also a particularly special form in our sect so kept a little close. This form really has that Luohan quan feeling and character.

The thing is the ZhenXu one is the one that often has other names. It goes by the name 'Small 4 circuits' 小四回. It is certainly part of an important system, and excellent techniques. But It doesn't quite feel like Luohan. Certainly this is an entire subset in itself if you know all 8.

Does anyone have a line on anyone who knows all 8? I know of a ZhenXuPai based in Beijing that might have it.... Definately needs a closer look.

[LFJ]

What I like about the performance is how he is blindingly fast yet not at all sloppy. Every posture is done perfectly even at such speed. Nothing is cut or altered to make it faster. He's just that good. Beautiful performance, for me.

This has been his favorite set for a long time. I've watched him develop it over the years and it just keeps getting faster, yet without alteration. I'm impressed, because I've tried to follow. It's a very tiring set, even so short. I remember a few years ago I was training this set with them and they were pushing me to go faster and faster. I got to the xuanfengjiao to zuopan and just fell over backward. Dead.

[LFJ]

The thing is the ZhenXu one is the one that often has other names. It goes by the name 'Small 4 circuits' 小四回. It is certainly part of an important system, and excellent techniques. But It doesn't quite feel like Luohan. Certainly this is an entire subset in itself if you know all 8.

I think I can explain this one now, since my lineage and experience is mainly from Zhenxu's teachings. The reason it doesn't quite feel like Luohanquan is because it's not! It is actually an extension of Nanyuan Tongbiquan.

I've always been told that in our sect the subsystem of main importance is (Nanyuan) Tongbiquan, considered to be our Kanjia Quanfa, but I found it odd that Shi Deyang made instructionals of both Xiao & Da Tongbiquan with minor but no major difference to how it's taught to legit students.

So, since I've learned the 3 Xiao & 3 Da Tongbiquan sets and the Luohan Shiba Shou yilu set from the same source, I've analyzed the content, posture names, and applications and found this "Luohan" to be completely Nanyuan Datongbiquan material. It can be placed seamlessly onto the other sets as if an extension, but it contains much more devastating applications even in its simplicity, which leads me to believe this is actually our "Kanjia" Tongbiquan I was told about. Hence it is often given different names, which further obscures its identity, and is extremely hard to find. It's a well guarded system within a rather small sect. I think the first road has been poached and the shenfa altered to look more "Luohan" by the folks who do it as Damo Shiba Shou with the Luohan Shuijiao at the end.

I'll give a breakdown so you can follow me:

First of all, the set opens and closes with the Fuzi Gongshou cross hands "salute". This is the common Nanyuan salute which is also used to open and close the roads of Datongbiquan.

The particular shushen posture in both sets, called Nili Bacong (pulling scallions from the mud), is done with open palms on the same side of the body. In both sets this immediately follows an action called Xianren Zhaiqie (immortal picks eggplant) which is done in gongbu with the lead hand 'shading' above the head and the rear hand inserting below with qiangshou (spear hand). This is like a Heihu Taoxin (black tiger rips out heart) action. It is followed in both sets by Nili Bacong.

Then there is the double expanding elbow action (Bengzhou) which is a repeated feature of Nanyuan Datongbiquan. It also appears in this set done the same way. Also featuring is a unique double palm action called Tuidaoqiang (pushing over the wall), done with both hands slightly forward and out-turned, as if attacking the hips or jaw.

Lastly, before ending in the Fuzi Gongshou salute, as with each road of Nanyuan Datongbiquan, this set also does Qianda Houzai which in gongbu is a strike to the front perpendicular to the body and a drawing back of the other elbow. It looks kind of like the Kaigong (drawing bow) posture.

Personally, I've been running from the Datongbiquan sanlu 'Fuzi Gongshou' ending posture straight into this set, repeating on the other side at the end, as with the other roads and it is clearly the same style. The rest of the roads repeat a lot of characteristic features of Xiaotongbiquan, including postures and monkey actions, plus a lot more unique things. (They also share some common postures with the 13 sets of Kanjiaquan which also share more commonalities with Nanyuan Tongbiquan, but that's another thing we've discussed previously.)

Shi Zhenxu also created two roads of Xinyi Changchui. These sets are also pretty close to the rest of our Tongbiquan material. It repeats the 360 lihetui, haidipao, chuaitui sequence from Datongbiquan sanlu, and has a high usage of qiangshou as in Xiaotongbiquan, as well as the rooster claw and actions. Although modern, that further confirms the Dong Cheng Tongbi monkey/ Ji Jike Xinyi rooster connection as discussed in the Changhuxinyimen thread. This is what our Nanyuan Tongbiquan comes from, and I find no other logical explanation than for the 8lu Luohan Shiba Shou to in fact be our Kanjia Tongbiquan. It seems pretty obviously to me now. I'll look more into when I get a chance.

[RenDaHai]

Hmmm,

THis is interesting. I have always heard there to be a secret 24 posture tongbei quan, literally called michuan tongbei 24 shi. COuld be linked with this?

It would kind of makes sense but also to call it 18 shou, The 18 shou of our sect is also sort of our KanJia QUan, that is why it is so so rare to see.

Either way it polarises these into nanyuan and xiyuan again. WHich means we have pretty much identified the 18 shou sets with the exception of one set I saw Yan ZHuang do which was done in one spot more qigong like.

Certainly I have always seen it practiced by people who also practice the nanyuan xiao Tongbei quan.

Worth searching for the ZhenXu Pai. The full set would be invaluable.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm, LFJ, have you looked also at the remaining 8 sets of these 18 Hands?

Are they also like Nanyuan Tongbei Quan?

That would be interesting, if they are not, then it would seem that only the first road is material from Nanyuan Tongbei Quan, which would also imply that it came first.

Ren, the 24 Road Tongbei Quan is from the style of Tongbei Quan that influenced the formation of Chen Taiji Quan, it isn't like the Shaolin Tongbei Quan.

That's another thing, Tongbi versus Tongbei.

Tongbi is Ming and early Qing times was the equivalent of saying Chang Quan Pigua. It was a name for Long fist that came from military Pigua, hence it was done "through the arms".

Tongbei Quan is through the back, and that is a style developed by Dong Cheng in late 1500s/early 1600s, a forerunner to Chen and Zhaobao Taiji Quan, that mixed what he learned from two different sources:
1 - Shaolin arts - he learned Da Hong Quan, taizu Chang quan, Pao Quan, Rou Quan (MAYBE Tongbi Quan) and Hong staff.
2 - Taoist 13 postures boxing (which comes from Shaolin Rou Quan anyways) and Taoist Straight Sword.

[SHemmati]

yeah, very clear. nanyuan tong bi quan is very similar to the 1st shaolin luohan 18 hands. that could have a simple description, many bigger forms are directly extentions of the smaller older forms. like small tong bi quan which is based on small hong quan.

luohan 18 hands and luohan quan are 2 different systems. you should not expect one to feel like the other. luohan 18 hands roots are much older and look extremely simpler, luohan quan is highly advanced and imitates Buddha. these are 2 totally different moods.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmmm,

THis is interesting. I have always heard there to be a secret 24 posture tongbei quan, literally called michuan tongbei 24 shi. COuld be linked with this?

It would kind of makes sense but also to call it 18 shou, The 18 shou of our sect is also sort of our KanJia QUan, that is why it is so so rare to see.

Either way it polarises these into nanyuan and xiyuan again. WHich means we have pretty much identified the 18 shou sets with the exception of one set I saw Yan ZHuang do which was done in one spot more qigong like.

Certainly I have always seen it practiced by people who also practice the nanyuan xiao Tongbei quan.

Worth searching for the ZhenXu Pai. The full set would be invaluable.

Ren, what are the exact Chinese characters and English from the pinyin for:
the Zhen Xu Xuan Tian Luohan 18 shou,

[RenDaHai]

Ren, what are the exact Chinese characters and English from the pinyin for:
the Zhen Xu Xuan Tian Luohan 18 shou,

My mistake, it is 'Xian' Tian. It is not referred to as Zhen Xu but I call it that to identify it as he is the one who passed it on. Usually just Xian Tian Luohan 18 Shou

Zhen Xu is his name: 贞绪

Xian Tian is 'Innate': 先天

Luohan, you know, Saint: 罗汉

18 Shou, 18 hands: 十八手

ALternatively called : Xiao Si Hui, 小四回, 4 small circles.

先天罗汉十八手 or 小四回

[RenDaHai]

Lets not forget we still have the Luohan 18 shou which I practice and is in the book posted.

This most definately does look and feel like luohan.

On an interesting side note in my sect it is sometimes called Luohan 18 SHI, as opposed to shou. Shi 式.

[Sal Canzonieri]

thanks Ren!

[LFJ]

Hmm, LFJ, have you looked also at the remaining 8 sets of these 18 Hands?

Are they also like Nanyuan Tongbei Quan?

Yes. As I said: "The rest of the roads repeat a lot of characteristic features of Xiaotongbiquan, including postures and monkey actions, plus a lot more unique things. (They also share some common postures with the 13 sets of Kanjiaquan which also share more commonalities with Nanyuan Tongbiquan, but that's another thing we've discussed previously.)"

If you are familiar with the 3 Xiao & 3 Da Tongbiquan, the other roads definitely look like an extension of this same subsystem.

[LFJ]

yeah, very clear. NanYuan Tong Bi quan is very similar to the 1st road of Luohan ShiBa Shou, aka Xian Tian Luohan ShiBa Shou, etc. BUT we know that that Luohan 18 Shou is from the first eras of Shaolin kung fu formation, about Sui Dynasty era, much before HanTong and the story of formation of Tong Bi/Bei quan in Song Dynasty era. so, while we know that road 1 of Luohan 18 Shou is much older than Tong Bi quan and other styles and so cannot be based on them, the case here is, for sure, that NanYuan Tong Bi quan is directly based on road 1 of Luohan 18 Shou.


About the 18 posture, road1, Luohan ShiBa Shou form:
that Luohan 18 Shou form is consisted of the 18 most famous techniques of Luohan 18 Shou based on which the 27 posture Lao/Xiao/YiLu Luohan quan and other Luohan forms were later created, the 18 postures that were also later developd into 72 and 173 by Jue Yuan and others. this is told in most Shaolin lineages. even your master, shi Deyang, in his instructional video of this Luohan 18 Shou (that i linked above) clearly says that the 18 postures of this Luohan ShiBa Shou are those 18 famous ancient Luohan techniques.
the reason why it doesn't seem like Luohan Quan is that those Luohan 18 postures have been created much earlier than Luohan Quan, they are primitive movements. Luohan postures belong to the much more advanced system of Luohan quan, which again must be said that have been developed much later than creation of those 18 Luohan ShiBa Shou postures. so we must not expect those 18 primitive movements to feel like Luohan quan.

Keep in mind, Luohan Shiba Shou as a name is as common as styles being named after Damo. It doesn't necessarily mean anything, except that it is obviously Buddhist/Shaolin related!

Don't mix up the courtyard styles. The Xiyuan and Nanyuan Tongbiquan aren't just different versions of the same system. They have different origins. The one likely to be related to General Han Tong's Tongbiquan is the Xiyuan system, which being older is a bit scattered and also has many different names.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is a lot easier to follow, as it is not so old. It is basically Dong Cheng's Tongbiquan, a mixture of the Shaolinquan he got from students of Bai Yufeng (Taizu Changquan, Hongquan, Paoquan) and Yuanhouquan, and later (Datongbiquan) Ji Jike's Xinyi rooster concepts. This is between the mid 1500's to the final years of the Ming Dynasty in the mid 1600's. We can know this by looking at the contents of the material and when and where it was created and taught.

Luohan Shiba Shou yilu as described is mainly Nanyuan Datongbiquan technique. Other roads are more Xiaotongbiquan. As both of these came from outside created in the late Ming Dynasty, it doesn't make sense for the same technique base to have been created within Shaolin centuries earlier. This Luohan Shiba Shou series at the earliest may be placed somewhere between Nanyuan Xiaotongbiquan and Datongbiquan.

Also, I wouldn't suggest taking instructional videos as reference for history! Shi Deyang basically just repeats common Shaolin legends in the videos, rather than discussing factual history. In most cases it is pretty easy to debunk the legends with a little research.

Someone I know asked Shi Xingsen (who is in some Liu Zhenhai instructionals) why the sets they show differ in the videos and books they made. He said the books are often more accurate because people who are really serious will look to books for research purposes. The videos in most cases are just for hobbyists, so they just have watered-downed versions of the sets with a word or two of basic legends for the "formation".

By the way, in Shi Deqian's individual book on this Luohan Shiba Shou series he gives quite a different story on the origin of the name which isn't about statues. If there is a much older Shaolin Luohan Shiba Shou system, this can't be it. It's Nanyuan Tongbiquan all the way through.

[SHemmati]

there are many legend-like stories in Shaolin oral tradition. that's normal. however, sometimes technical analysis compliments these stories as true. the divine simplicity of the 1st luohan 18 hands could be a sign of it being at least some hundreds of years older than the others. it conforms with the stories and the properties of the historical era the Shaolin lineages ascribe it to. in case of such accordance, it's worth considering those stories.

[LFJ]

now, as a check, let's refer to the stories, if anything works, we say the story is likely to be true, otherwise it's most likely wrong. OK? that's why i mentioned those stories, because they say the road 1 belongs to the ancient times of about Sui Dynasty. it then has been developed into a form, still called Luohan ShiBa Shou, to the Tang era, it has been developed into 36 postures, then into 173 postures by Jue Yuan and others in the early Song Dynasty era. most the references say this, like the 4-volume encyclopedia (i don't have the 2-vol set and don't know if they've changed the story or not.).

I think we can stop here. In the encyclopedia, it says it was expanded to 324 movements, in 18 roads. The individual book on this Luohan Shiba Shou also says it is just showing the first 9 roads of the series. But we know for a fact the 9th road in the Encyc. is from Huaquan, a style outside of Shaolin. In the individual book the 9th road is Hushanzimen, again unrelated to the other 8 roads.

Basically, the history given is for the 18 road Luohan Shiba Shou, which this 8 road series is not.

here if we say NanYuan Pai kung fu is technically based on Luohan ShiBa Shou, this is a loose guess that seems rational, at least, at the first sight.

Based on the contents of the 8 road series being Nanyuan Tongbiquan, and the history of this Tongbiquan entering Shaolin, I'd have to say this Luohan Shiba Shou series is an extension of the Tongbiquan subsystem developed within in the Nanyuan, becoming the Kanjia system. I'll have to confirm, but it's clearly the same style and era based on its contents, Tongbi monkey, Xinyi rooster...