Luohan Quan

[Sal Canzonieri]

Keep in mind, Luohan Shiba Shou as a name is as common as styles being named after Damo. It doesn't necessarily mean anything, except that it is obviously Buddhist/Shaolin related!

Don't mix up the courtyard styles. The Xiyuan and Nanyuan Tongbiquan aren't just different versions of the same system. They have different origins. The one likely to be related to General Han Tong's Tongbiquan is the Xiyuan system, which being older is a bit scattered and also has many different names.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is a lot easier to follow, as it is not so old. It is basically Dong Cheng's Tongbiquan, a mixture of the Shaolinquan he got from students of Bai Yufeng (Taizu Changquan, Hongquan, Paoquan) and Yuanhouquan, and later (Datongbiquan) Ji Jike's Xinyi rooster concepts. This is between the mid 1500's to the final years of the Ming Dynasty in the mid 1600's. We can know this by looking at the contents of the material and when and where it was created and taught.

Luohan Shiba Shou yilu as described is mainly Nanyuan Datongbiquan technique. Other roads are more Xiaotongbiquan. As both of these came from outside created in the late Ming Dynasty, it doesn't make sense for the same technique base to have been created within Shaolin centuries earlier. This Luohan Shiba Shou series at the earliest may be placed somewhere between Nanyuan Xiaotongbiquan and Datongbiquan.

Also, I wouldn't suggest taking instructional videos as reference for history! Shi Deyang basically just repeats common Shaolin legends in the videos, rather than discussing factual history. In most cases it is pretty easy to debunk the legends with a little research.

Someone I know asked Shi Xingsen (who is in some Liu Zhenhai instructionals) why the sets they show differ in the videos and books they made. He said the books are often more accurate because people who are really serious will look to books for research purposes. The videos in most cases are just for hobbyists, so they just have watered-downed versions of the sets with a word or two of basic legends for the "formation".

By the way, in Shi Deqian's individual book on this Luohan Shiba Shou series he gives quite a different story on the origin of the name which isn't about statues. If there is a much older Shaolin Luohan Shiba Shou system, this can't be it. It's Nanyuan Tongbiquan all the way through.

okay, so let's say it these 8 sets were developed around the same time as the other Nanyuan Shaolin sets. maybe they were created first before the nanyuan tongbei quan sets (lets' called the xiyuan version Tongbi quan), is that possible?

When Bai Yu Feng, Li Sou, and Jue Yuan went back to Shaolin, it is said there was hardly anyone there. They looked through all the library materials to create the new Shaolin Quan. It can't be the 1641 date (when the massacre by warlord Li Jiyu happened), it has to be before that, back when the Mongols were in power. People claim they were from the later Ming times, which makes no sense since there was plenty of martial arts there then, except right after the massacre. But Dong Cheng was from the late 1500s to mid 1600s, he learned Shaolin Quan before the massacre from students of Bai Yu Feng. Since he learned Hong Quan, staff, Taizu Chang quan, ROu Quan, and Pao Quan and he called what he practiced Tong BI Quan, it must be Xiyuan Shaolin that he learned.
After the massacre, 1641 (I think), Shaolin would need a reconstruction and hence the nanyuan gate Shaolin sets were developed. Okay, so it stands to reason they would want to develop some Luohan 18 hands since that was what Shaolin was known for. They had to get info from the countryside to do this reconstruction. So, what did the countryside Shaolin influenced folk have?

After this massacre time period, Dong Cheng called his art Tongbei Quan, because he had learned some Taoist material, such as their sword fighting and empty hand sets that were based on the 13 Postures, which was from originally Shaolin Rou Quan anyways (what dates for Rou Quan are in the Shaolin Encyclopdia)?

Now most important of all, the Luohan Siba Shou 8 Routines very clearly has all the animals and proto-typical postural movement material that Yinfu and Cheng Tinghua bagua Zhang was developed from. It is very very like Yinfu Bagua zhang, Cheng's came later and there is some overlap but not as much as Yinfu Bagua.
So, Dong Haichuan and Yinfu must have both practiced what they were calling Luohan first. How did they get them?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Jue Yuan, Bai Yufeng, Li Sou couldn't have been from the Song dynasty.
1 - there was no need to reconstruct Shaolin quan then, Shaolin flourished till thee early mongol invasion, when it was destroyed (yet again).
Also, Zhao Kuangyin had his generals go to Shaolin to help them develop what became the Xiyuan Shaolin stuff. They did this to standardize Shaolin Quan and use the manuals for testing.

2 - there are written records in various manuals who the students were of these 3 people and two of these students (Guo Wanqin and Zhang Wenkui) were Dong Cheng's teachers and were contempories of Wang Zhonyue and of Zhang (whatever his first name I forgot, ha) of Taoist martial arts fame. AND all these people taught Dong Cheng, and we can know when Dong Cheng of Qianzi temple lived since there were lots of mentions of him in manuals of the time, AND that his student Dong Bingqian was Chen Wangting's teacher too. And he taught Chen around the time of the massacre. Which brings us back to the late 1640.

Also, in the Wang Village Six Harmony Divine Spear manual in circulation in the Huaiqing area, there was an introduction written by Wang Zhaoyu, the ‘Six Harmony Spear’ expert of the Jiaqing era [1796 – 1820] which states, ‘…when old Dong [Bingqian] came north, he possessed two consummate skills: boxing and spear. For spear, he practiced ‘Six Harmony Divine Spear’; for boxing, he practiced the ‘13 Postures’. He hid away to practice the Tao, and transmitted his spear skills to the neighboring Wang Village, and his boxing skills to Chen Village in Wen County. His school of martial arts came originally from Zhang Sanfeng’. This same statement is made in the ‘Origins Preface’ of the Wang Village Spear Manual written by Wang Anmin in the Qianlong period (1735 – 1796). Dong Bingqian was student of Dong Cheng, and he directly taught Chen Wangting and others.



So, what is the most logical years that Jue, Bai and Li Sou were at Shaolin?

Not a 1,000 years earlier in the Song that's for sure.

late 1500s?

Don't have my source material handy, since most of my stuff is packed up fo rmoving.

[SHemmati]

I think we can stop here. In the encyclopedia, it says it was expanded to 324 movements, in 18 roads. The individual book on this Luohan Shiba Shou also says it is just showing the first 9 roads of the series. But we know for a fact the 9th road in the Encyc. is from Huaquan, a style outside of Shaolin. In the individual book the 9th road is Hushanzimen, again unrelated to the other 8 roads.

Basically, the history given is for the 18 road Luohan Shiba Shou, which this 8 road series is not.

encyclopedia has just listed them, different forms with similar names, that's it. like it has done for the xinyi or pao quan forms, unrelated forms listed one after the other under the same name. however, those first 8 forms are technically and systematically linked.

[r.(shaolin)]

Now most important of all, the Luohan Siba Shou 8 Routines very clearly has all the animals and proto-typical postural movement material that Yinfu and Cheng Tinghua bagua Zhang was developed from. It is very very like Yinfu Bagua zhang, Cheng's came later and there is some overlap but not as much as Yinfu Bagua.
So, Dong Haichuan and Yinfu must have both practiced what they were calling Luohan first. How did they get them?

Where can one see some of this set on the web?
r.

[SHemmati]

Don't mix up the courtyard styles. The Xiyuan and Nanyuan Tongbiquan aren't just different versions of the same system. They have different origins. The one likely to be related to General Han Tong's Tongbiquan is the Xiyuan system, which being older is a bit scattered and also has many different names.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is a lot easier to follow, as it is not so old. It is basically Dong Cheng's Tongbiquan, a mixture of the Shaolinquan he got from students of Bai Yufeng (Taizu Changquan, Hongquan, Paoquan) and Yuanhouquan, and later (Datongbiquan) Ji Jike's Xinyi rooster concepts. This is between the mid 1500's to the final years of the Ming Dynasty in the mid 1600's. We can know this by looking at the contents of the material and when and where it was created and taught.

Shaolin xiyuan tong bi quan is originally related to general Han Tong's teachings. the Nanyuan small tong bi is based on this older system, mixed based on small hong quan ang monkey methods. Dong Cheng's tong bei quan is some daoist style and has no relevance whatsoever except a similar name with shaolin tong bi quan. their two totally different styles with similar names, that's it. however, i'm going to post this into tong bi quan thread. it contains important information on the eras.

[LFJ]

But Dong Cheng was from the late 1500s to mid 1600s, he learned Shaolin Quan before the massacre from students of Bai Yu Feng. Since he learned Hong Quan, staff, Taizu Chang quan, ROu Quan, and Pao Quan and he called what he practiced Tong BI Quan, it must be Xiyuan Shaolin that he learned.

Yes, Xiyuan. I think so. I also think his monkey material quite possibly came from the Yuanhouquan set, which shares the same renshou technique and a high usage of qiangshou, plus considering its connection to Zhao Kuangyin and Xiyuan as well. Although his Tongbiquan, when brought to Shaolin, came into the Nanyuan. Xiyuan would have already had Han Tong's Tongbiquan.

However, he must have been earlier than that. Based on records of his students through the generations, he should have lived during the reign of Jiajing (1521-1567), not much early than Qi Jiguang (1528-1587).

As for Jueyuan, Bai Yufeng, and Li Sou, their students were teachers of Dong Cheng. They should have been in Shaolin, teaching around the reign of Zhengde (1505-1521). By the way, in some cases the name Jinnaluo Wang is used as a persona to actually refer to Bai Yufeng. The earliest mention of Jinnaluo Wang as a saint is on a stele from 1517. Which should be roughly the time Bai Yufeng was there.

okay, so let's say it these 8 sets were developed around the same time as the other Nanyuan Shaolin sets. maybe they were created first before the nanyuan tongbei quan sets (lets' called the xiyuan version Tongbi quan), is that possible?

We also use the 臂 (arm) character, which can also be pronounced bei, but it is not the 背 (back) character. Both Xiyuan and Nanyuan use the same character as far as I know.

Anyway, I see a ton of Nanyuan Xiaotongbiquan in the 8 sets, but also Datongbiquan, particularly in the first set. The technique of Xiaotongbiquan matches Dong Cheng's style (Shaolin + monkey), but the Datongbiquan matches Ji Jike's Xinyi rooster. Dong Cheng is said to have visited and taught at Shaolin Monastery at a time. So Xiaotongbiquan could be from that time, or when Ji Jike brought the same system that he learned. But Datongbiquan which contains rooster elements must come from Ji Jike's teachings. So it's mid-1500's at earliest for Xiaotongbiquan and early/mid-1600's at earliest for Datongbiquan.

Since the Luohan Shiba Shou sets appear to be mostly Xiaotongbi technique, with some Datongbi (road 1 is uniquely Datongbi), I would place it somewhere in between, or after both as an expansion in the Nanyuan as the Kanjia system either way.

[LFJ]

albeit, i think we all agree that if there's any authentic Shaolin Luohan ShiBa Shou, it's nothing outside of those 8 roads.

I don't think I would agree! Why? The whole series is uniquely Nanyuan Tongbiquan. Nothing about it really strikes me as Luohan at all. I think the 18 road Luohan Shiba Shou is something quite different.

so far, three possibilities; if any, only one of these 3 can be true.:

1. Luohan ShiBa Shou is based on NanYuan Tong Bi quan;
2. NanYuan Pai Kung fu is based on Luohan ShiBa Shou;
3. NanYuan Pai and other styles could be based on the first road of Luohan ShiBa Shou, and then NanYuan people have developed the other 7 roads of Luohan ShiBa Shou, under any title, whether Luohan ShiBa Shou or as their special Tong Bi quan, of course if have not been created previously, like by Jue Yuan or at other eras, i don't know.

Since the first road is Datongbi, the one with rooster elements that must have come from Ji Jike, which is later than Dong Cheng and his monkey Xiaotongbiquan, I don't think you could say that developed from the first road.

The only option that really seems possible to me is number 1.

Ji Jike's rooster concept was new and unrefined. Another thing it turned into in Shaolin was the loose techniques of Xinyiba. It was simple stuff. I think it is possible the simple Road 1 was Ji Jike's material. Then the Datongbiquan sets came from that, as well as the rest of the roads drawing from this and the Xiaotongbi material from Dong Cheng, that Ji Jike would have also taught.

[SHemmati]

I don't think I would agree! Why? The whole series is uniquely Nanyuan Tongbiquan. Nothing about it really strikes me as Luohan at all. I think the 18 road Luohan Shiba Shou is something quite different.

wow! so you think those 8 forms are not luohan 18 hands! then what is shaolin luohan 18 hands?

[RenDaHai]

18 roads of 324 postures?

So that is like 6 full length forms.

Then maybe LZH videos does have them all.... We all agreed that his road 7 is meihuaquan, the others are all confirmed luohan, must be close to 324 postures. When you link short forms together you eliminate some repeated postures so that would bring the number down a bit. Each set of LZH must be about 2-3 (18 hand) roads or so.


So with the 18 shou, if we think XiaoSiHui is the Nanyuans base form, then the ancient luohan 18 shou must be the one in the xiyuan, the unusual one in the book.


Does anyone know what postures it should contain? I know the names of the postures of mine and it is not the same as the book.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Where can one see some of this set on the web?
r.

There are none. Shi Deyang does the first road, with the movements out of order from the Shaolin official version in the encylcopedia and from the way I learned it. And he does it with all external looking shen fa, so it is unrecognizable unless you know where to look.

[Sal Canzonieri]

18 roads of 324 postures?

So that is like 6 full length forms.

Then maybe LZH videos does have them all.... We all agreed that his road 7 is meihuaquan, the others are all confirmed luohan, must be close to 324 postures. When you link short forms together you eliminate some repeated postures so that would bring the number down a bit. Each set of LZH must be about 2-3 (18 hand) roads or so.


So with the 18 shou, if we think XiaoSiHui is the Nanyuans base form, then the ancient luohan 18 shou must be the one in the xiyuan, the unusual one in the book.


Does anyone know what postures it should contain? I know the names of the postures of mine and it is not the same as the book.

6 full length sets, that's great logic. cool. Such good detectives here, ha.
Then those Shaolin sets fall into place of LZH.

AND, taking that concept of 324 postures = 6 full sets, then that's why we have only seen 6 sets from Shi Degen style Luohan Quan that Zhu Tianxi does. Its just the six sets ever seen. Hope so, that would simplify things.

AND it would simplify when they say that Taizu Chang Quan has 18 roads, it would be just 6 sets, which they must be in the Shaolin Encyclopedia in some form using different names for each road.
The way that I found that Chang Quan Er Lu is the middle set of LZH's Tongbei Quan video that I show on YouTube.

Ren, the ancient Luohan Shiba Shou must be the one in the LZH book, as it and another book I have say that that set is ancient coming to Shaolin through Li Sou (which makes it part of Da Hong Quan!) It sure is different from any Luohan seen today.

[Sal Canzonieri]

And then there is this Luohan 18 Hands set:

http://www.360doc.com/content/08/102..._1803741.shtml

There's videos everywhere of Shi Dejian doing it, you know his Xinyi ba style Luohan Shou.

[RenDaHai]

And then there is this Luohan 18 Hands set:

http://www.360doc.com/content/08/102..._1803741.shtml

There's videos everywhere of Shi Dejian doing it, you know his Xinyi ba style Luohan Shou.

This one is explained. It is the standard one deyang does, albeit with a bit different Shen fa. It is essentially the same form. Xian Tian Luohan 18 shou, or Xiao Si hui. It makes sense because Dejians WuGuLun Pai is supposedly from the nanyuan.

[LFJ]

18 roads of 324 postures?

So that is like 6 full length forms.

Then maybe LZH videos does have them all.... We all agreed that his road 7 is meihuaquan, the others are all confirmed luohan, must be close to 324 postures. When you link short forms together you eliminate some repeated postures so that would bring the number down a bit. Each set of LZH must be about 2-3 (18 hand) roads or so.


So with the 18 shou, if we think XiaoSiHui is the Nanyuans base form, then the ancient luohan 18 shou must be the one in the xiyuan, the unusual one in the book.


Does anyone know what postures it should contain? I know the names of the postures of mine and it is not the same as the book.

I think you nailed it, RDH. That's the 18 road series in the Xiyuan and the older precursor. That's the history in the Encyclopedia applied to the Nanyuan version, which is clearly different.

I suppose the reason the Nanyuan 8 road series is called Luohan Shiba Shou is because the Nanyuan wanted a version. By the way, the word Xiantian (先天) is the opposite of Houtian (后天). I think in this case it doesn't quite mean 'innate' and 'acquired', 'priori' and 'posteriori', or something like that, but simply 'former days' and 'latter days'. This means the road 1 must come from Ji Jike's early Xinyi rooster material when he was at the monastery, and the other roads are more based on Dong Cheng's Xiaotongbi monkey. Then the Datongbiquan sets were created later based on this 'prior day' Tongbi.

So it would put this 8 road series in between Xiao and Da, and dated around the 1630's or so when Ji Jike was there, before the massacre.

[Sal Canzonieri]

That makes sense LFJ about the 18 Hands set and that would explain some things to me why Bagua Zhang and Xingyi Quan have a lot of overlap.

Another topic:

In Dr. Yan’s article, “Creator of Shaolin Five Fists, Bai Yufeng, was from the Ming”, he states that Bai was a person from Ye in the Ming era, and later was mistakenly said to be from the Jin or Yuan periods. He says that it is easy to date when Bai was really from since all the various old Tongbei Quan manuals note that founder Dong Cheng learned from Bai’s two direct in line students, Guo Wanqin and Zhang Wenkui. Also, various written records on Shaolin Quan that have been preserved show that equally famous Shaolin Monk Jue Yuan, the contemporary training partner of Bai Yufeng, had a student named Yi Guan, he had a historically proven student named (蔡) Cai Jiuyi, who was later the founder in Canton of the Choi / Choy family boxing style, and who lived in the late Ming into the early Qing eras. Thus, these facts place Bai Yufeng in the mid to late 1400s of the Ming Dynasty at the earliest, otherwise he would have been teaching when way over a hundred years old.



Okay, speaking of Luohan Quan and Shiba Shou, I am going to post here from my book a section that has never before been shown to anyone in English about what the forms were that were developed by Jue Yuan and Baiyu Feng, it is very interesting.
In return for sharing it, I ask just one thing, can you please review my english translation and let me know if there is better ways to say things AND help me with the pinyin translation of the english and the Chinese characters, thanks!

here goes:


According to the Shaolin Wu Quanpu manual (少林五拳譜), the art passed on through the generations from (Ming dynasty Hong Wu era) Monk Jue Yuan to Monk Yi Guan to secular Cao Wangting (曹王廷) of Shaanxi, who passed it on to a layman named Teng Heizi. Then during the Qing dynasty it passed to a lay person by the name of Liu Qingchao of Shandong Shou County, next it was passed on to a Zhang Junwe, a layman in Raoyang County in Shandong, then to Feng Yan, and finally to a layman named Niu Hanzhang (1898- 1975).

Bai Yufeng’s Wu Xing Ditang Quan consisted of such sets as:
龍地躺拳三十五手 – Long Ditang Quan 35 hands (Dragon lies down boxing 35 hands);
黑虎地趟拳三十五手 – Hei Hu Ditang Quan 35 Shou (Black tiger lies down boxing 35 hands);
金豹地躺拳三十五手 – Jin Bao Ditang Quan 35 Shou (Golden Leopard lies down boxing 35 hands);
蛇形地躺拳三十五手 – Shi Xing Ditang Quan 35 Shou (Snake-shape lies down boxing 35 hands);
鶴形地躺拳三十五手 – He Xing Ditang Quan 35 Shou (Crane shape lies down boxing 35 Hands).
The five fists altogether total 175 hands.

In addition there were 60 Postures of Lying Down Seizing Positions, Ditang Zhuan Qinna Liushi Shi 地躺專操姿六十勢.

Monk Jue Yuan developed a series of Luohan Quan sets as well (more on this later in this book).

This 少林五拳譜 book passed on to Niu Hangzhang shows a complete system of Shaolin martial arts taught in this ancient lineage, including:

Standing Gong (Exercises or Skills) - 樁功 (八字, 一字, 川字, 子午樁);
Slipping Legs Frame (methods) - 溜腿架 (十字, 四正, 四隅三套);
18 Section Child Gong - 十八段童子功;
18 Section Luohan Gong - 十八段羅漢功;
Luohan Shiba Shou - 18 Hands - 羅漢十八手;
Changed Transforming 15 hands (Bian Hua 15 Shou) - 變化十五手;
Shaolin 5 Fist - 少林五拳,
Drunken 8 Immortals - 醉八仙;
Orthodox Shaolin Boxing 10 Times - 正宗少林拳十趟 :
1 四旬開進式 – 40 Open Entrance Methods,
2 六旬四方式 – 64 Direction Methods ,
3 八旬盤身式 – 80 Coiling Body Methods,
4 八方變通式 – 8 Direction Changing Through Methods,
5 化頤六合式 – Transforming Nourishing Six Harmony Methods,
6 陰陽中合式 – Yin Yang Center Harmony Methods,
7 鴛鴦進步連環腿 – Mandarin Duck Advancing Step Linked Kicks,
8 盤膝陰手式 – Coiled Knees Yin Hands Methods,
9 震伏順意式 – Shaking Submit to Obey Thoughts Methods, and
10 震靜机動式 – Shaking Still Secret Methods;
18 Times Luohan Boxing – 十八趟羅漢拳;
Shaolin Hard Soft 24 Postures – 少林刚柔二十四势;
Shaolin 36 Hands Walking / Traveling School Cross Steps – 少林三十六手行门过步;
Shaolin Cutting Hands Way of 16 Hands – 少林裁手法十六手;
360 Scattered Hands (San Shou) – 三百六十散手;
Neigong (internal exercises) Qi/Air Techniques - 內功气術;
Intersecting Hands Method Secrets Class – 交手法訣等;
many weapons sets (such as: 八仙剑, 八仙醉剑, 穿云双剑, 六路进化戟, 开山大斧, 朝天大钺, 连环钩, 檀香双拐, 流行锤, 鞭, 锏, 锤, 抓, 镗, 狼牙棒, 搠镢, 棒, 花枪, 单刀, 七节钉, 三节棍, 匕手, 钩镰枪, 梢子棍, 铁尺, 连子锤, 板斧, 子午鸳鸯钺, 判官双笔, 手拯子, 鹅眉刺, 双蓝, 少林缩身摆莲地躺剑, 少林地躺双刀, 少林地躺七节鞭 );
Li Sou’s Shaolin Staff methods – 李叟所传少林棍法;
8 Coiling Linking Staff - 八盘连环棍;
Division into 7 methods and 8 points - 分七法八点,
Stick secret song – 棍诀歌, and also
66 Posture Stick Chart 66 - 六十六势棍谱.

Bai Yufeng also taught the “18 Luohan Hands qigong exercises”, which had first started being practiced at Shaolin in the Song dynasty and by the Jin Dynasty became known as the “Eight Section Brocade”, which later changed into the “Yi Jinjing” 12 Postures. Niu’s Shaolin quan pu book passes on Bai Yufeng’s record of the 18 Luohan Hands method:
1. 朝天直举 (一手) – Face Upwards Vertical Rise;
2. 排山运掌 (共四手) – Row of Mountains Moving Palms;
3. 黑虎伸腰（四手) – Black Tiger Stretches Waist;
4. 鹰翼舒展 (一手) – Eagle Wings stretch spread;
5. 辑肘钩胸 (一手) – Gather elbows hook chest;
6. 挽弓开膈 (一手) – Pull Bow Open Diaphragm;
7. 金豹露爪 (一手) – Golden Leopard Presents Claws;
8. 腿力跌荡 (三手) – Legs Forcibly Drop Move;
9. 钩腿盘旋 (三手) – Hook Legs Coil Revolve.

As it can be seen, Bai Yufeng actually created these 18 Luohan exercises, and not Damo (Bodhidharma), as legends later began to say. Note: General Qi Jiguang in his Ming era (1500s) military book names many styles that he had heard of in his time, but did not name Shaolin Quan nor the Wu Quan, which means that Jue Yuan’s Luohan Quan and Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan had not reached outside their own inner circle and had not spread into the populace yet. But, by the Qing dynasty it became well known; with Shaolin then developing many more styles and routines.