Luohan Quan

[RenDaHai]

6 full length sets, that's great logic. cool. Such good detectives here, ha.
Then those Shaolin sets fall into place of LZH.

AND, taking that concept of 324 postures = 6 full sets, then that's why we have only seen 6 sets from Shi Degen style Luohan Quan that Zhu Tianxi does. Its just the six sets ever seen. Hope so, that would simplify things.

AND it would simplify when they say that Taizu Chang Quan has 18 roads, it would be just 6 sets, which they must be in the Shaolin Encyclopedia in some form using different names for each road.
The way that I found that Chang Quan Er Lu is the middle set of LZH's Tongbei Quan video that I show on YouTube.

Ren, the ancient Luohan Shiba Shou must be the one in the LZH book, as it and another book I have say that that set is ancient coming to Shaolin through Li Sou (which makes it part of Da Hong Quan!) It sure is different from any Luohan seen today.

It would be convenient, but I think the Degen/ZhuTianXI Luohans may be a bit different. I think I have seen 5 of them though which may well be most, they are all very long.

My Xiao+Da Hong is also 6 roads. I know Da HOng is from a different time, but I think it has been reformed in some era since the later sets all go together so well.

By my estimation the Xiyuan HanTOng Tong bei is 6 roads. LZH 1+2 then Meihua ditang, then Da tong bei then 2 unknowns, supposed datongbei 2 +3. I don't know if the standard taizu chang quan would fit into this, it doesn't look so similar.

WOuld be interesting to know what the 32 moves of Taizu quan are supposed to be. Is it to do with Qi Ji Guangs 32 postures?

The ancient 18 shou form is certainly the most different of all my forms. Unmistakably Shaolin, but very unusual. I'll send the names of the postures of ti to you. The ones in my version are a little different to the book.

[RenDaHai]

Great info Sal!

Is this book still extant?? [wu quan pu]

[Sal Canzonieri]

Great info Sal!

Is this book still extant?? [wu quan pu]

Yep, it is in the hands of that Niu guy I mentioned.

[Sal Canzonieri]

It would be convenient, but I think the Degen/ZhuTianXI Luohans may be a bit different. I think I have seen 5 of them though which may well be most, they are all very long.

My Xiao+Da Hong is also 6 roads. I know Da HOng is from a different time, but I think it has been reformed in some era since the later sets all go together so well.

By my estimation the Xiyuan HanTOng Tong bei is 6 roads. LZH 1+2 then Meihua ditang, then Da tong bei then 2 unknowns, supposed datongbei 2 +3. I don't know if the standard taizu chang quan would fit into this, it doesn't look so similar.

WOuld be interesting to know what the 32 moves of Taizu quan are supposed to be. Is it to do with Qi Ji Guangs 32 postures?

The ancient 18 shou form is certainly the most different of all my forms. Unmistakably Shaolin, but very unusual. I'll send the names of the postures of ti to you. The ones in my version are a little different to the book.

The 32 taizu chang quan is not at all like Qi Jiguangs 32, though a lot of people bull**** and say it is related, they aren't at all. There are videos of the Chang quan everywhere and you can compare it to the Qi Jiguang 32 videos and they are not alike at all. By "Interesting to know what the 32 moves of Taizu Quan are supposed to be" to you mean you want a listing of the forms in the routine? If so, here they are:

The actual 32 posture names for Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan:

海底捞沙 - Hai di lao yue (or sha) = ocean bottom scoop moon (or sand)
迎面扳手 - Yin-mian ban shou = face to face grab/wrench hand
撩阴截把捶 - Liao yin jie, ba chui = Pull up hidden (or genitals) cut/block and Grasp hammer
撑膀 - Cheng bang = support forearm
合身 - He shen = close body
提地擎天 - Ti di qing tian = lift ground seize sky
撂手撩脚挤手炮 - Lue shou hen jiao, Ji shou pao = (plunder) brush-past hand, step rudely foot (stamp), Squeeze hand cannon
撂手单冲拳 - Lue shou dan dong quan = Plunder/brush past single dashing fist
右二起脚 - (you) Er qi (fei) jiao = (right) two lifting (flying) feet
双括 - Shuang kuo = double embrace/ parenthesis
束身双抱拳 - Su shen shuang bao quan = close body double wrapping fist

左橛楔捶 - Zuo jue-xie chui = left plow (‘post wedge’) hammer
凤凰单展翅 - Feng Hwang dan zhan chi = Phoenix single spread wing
摇山 - Yao shan = Shake mountain
扳手推腰 - Ban shou Tui yao = grab/wrench hand and push waist
虎扑 - Hu pu = Tiger strike
挑打器眼 - Tiao da qi yan = (carry pole on) shoulder striking tool eye
束身双抱拳 - Su shen shuang bao = close body double wrapping

右橛楔捶 - You jue-xie chui = right plow (‘post wedge’) hammer
十字闯步前后冲拳 - Shi-zi kuo bu, qian dong quan = Cross-shape wide step, before and after rushing fists
盘肘 - Pan zhou = coil elbow
虚步亮掌 - Xu bu liang zhang = false/empty (?hill) step show palm
黑虎掏心 - Hei hu tao xin = Black tiger pulls out heart
左二起飞脚 - (Zuo) Er qi (fei) jiao = (left) two lifting (flying) feet
赘地炮 - Zhui di pao = elaborate ground cannon
燕子取水 - Yan-zi qu shui = Swallow takes water
霸王观阵- Ba-Wang guan zhen = Overlord observes battle formation (?bursts)
掏鬓捶 - Tao Bin Chui = Fish out (hair on) Temples hammer
磨腰掏肋捶 - Mo yao tao lei chui = Grind waist pullout rib hammer
虎扑 - Hu pu = tiger strike
双抱膝 - Shuang bao qi = double embrace knees
蹬足双冲拳 - Bing zu shuang dong quan = Gather feet, double rushing fists.

[LFJ]

Note: General Qi Jiguang in his Ming era (1500s) military book names many styles that he had heard of in his time, but did not name Shaolin Quan nor the Wu Quan, which means that Jue Yuan’s Luohan Quan and Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan had not reached outside their own inner circle and had not spread into the populace yet. But, by the Qing dynasty it became well known; with Shaolin then developing many more styles and routines.

Yes. I have by dating the lives of various students seen Bai Yufeng placed at Shaolin in the early 1500's. Which means the arts were new and developing by the time Qi Jiguang was born and old enough to know about it. Hence he hadn't heard of it.

As for your translations, I'd say Tang (趟) means "rows". "10 times" sort of means something else in English, like you do each movement "10 times". So you have "10 Rows of Orthodox Shaolin Boxing" and "18 Row Arhat Boxing".

Also Biantong (变通) is a single word which means like "adaptability", the ability to adapt to the situation. Similarly, Bianhua (变化) means to "change" or "transform". These are two very important skills!

The translation of Ditang 地躺 is a little difficult. I don't really like "lies down", but it is more literally like "ground-lying" or just "groundward" boxing.

[LFJ]

Yep, it is in the hands of that Niu guy I mentioned.

What about now, since he died in 1975?

[LFJ]

wow! so you think those 8 roads are not Luohan ShiBa Shou at all! right?
OK, this is some totally different idea!

the Encyclopedia mentions those 18 roads of 324 postures in total as a later development of Luohan ShiBa Shou in the Ming Dynasty. we've read that in the Ming dynasty a Luohan Quan was created with 18 short roads, each road with 3 sections, so 54 sections in total. with each section having 6 postures, they must have had 324 postures in total. the Encyclopedia is referring to this 18-road Luohan system.

Coming back to this. In the book we've been looking at recently, it shows a Luohanquan set (which if I recall is LZH 1+2) and says this is the first of the 18 road series taught by Shi Degen, which with the number of postures should fit into the 6 roads as shown by Liu Zhenhai. The first part of this series is obviously the same as Chashou Luohanquan (aka. Xiaoluohan/ Laojia Luohan). Other Luohan material, such as the so-called Yilu from Zhu Tianxi, can be found later in these sets, such as in Sanlu.

This book has Luohan material from Shi Degen and Li Gensheng. This Luohanquan being from Shi Degen (a Xiyuan monk), as it's written, and the Luohan Shiba Shou from Li Gensheng.

I have reason to believe this Luohan Shiba Shou, as well as the Yuanhouquan shown, have come through Bai Yufeng. The Luohan Shiba Shou may be the one he created. Yuanhouquan is said to be related to Zhao Kuangyin's style, which Bai Yufeng also taught and which made its way to Dong Cheng via his students to create the Tongbiquan now in Nanyuan, which shares great similarity with the Yuanhouquan set.

So this Luohan material here is all Xiyuan, going back to the early 1500's with Bai Yufeng.

The main style of Nanyuan is Tongbiquan and Xinyiquan/Xinyiba. So we have the 8 road series named as the Nanyuan version of Luohan Shiba Shou, but it is by name only. Its content is all uniquely Nanyun Tongbiquan.

[SHemmati]

Where can one see some of this set on the web?

Encyclopedia of Shaolin Kung fu, 4 volumes Collection (scribd.com)

the 8 roads of Luohan ShiBa Shou are at pp. 2-36 of Vol.2.

the Luohan ShiBa Shou at p.36 is the 9th road from Hua Quan we talked about, you can see its 18 techniques at pp. 1038-1061 of Vol.2, and its dui lian (2-person form) at pp. 106-135 of vol.4. that's it all!

[Sal Canzonieri]

What about now, since he died in 1975?

hmm, with his family as far as I know.

[Sal Canzonieri]

If you look at my translation of the Shaolin quanbu, all the Luohan routines we are talking about are actually there.

[LFJ]

what? so, Liu Zhenha's 6 VCDs (almost the same as Yongxin/Yanzhuang's Luohan quan)--which are Extended Versions of the old 27 and 54 posture Xiao and Da Luohan quans--can be the same old 18 short road Luohan quan of the late Ming Dynasty?
this is reasonable, however. because Degen's 18-road Luohan quan is much more than having 324 postures in total, every Degen's form has something about 50 postures!

Where did you get the idea that Shi Degen had 18 sets of 50 postures each?

I'm kind of lost. I don't know where the idea comes from that there are different 18 road series, or that all of these under discussion are different. All of it is contained within the the series shown by Liu Zhenhai, from Chashou, Jintong, to Zhang Shijie. However you name it or arrange it, it's clearly the same material.

Liu Zhenhai's are Shi Degen's. He was his student. Another student of Shi Degen who authored the book that shows LZH 1+2 says it was taught by Shi Degen and is the 18 road series. What's done by Zhu Tianxi and his students are contained within, because it's all the same material.

[RenDaHai]

Thing Is LFJ I am not sure it is the same material.

I mean I know that Degen did teach a Yilu whcih is close to Tagous.

I also know that it is obvious to see that Zhang Shi Jies yi lu is the same as LZH san lu/si lu.


However have you seen Degen/TianXi/ShiJie set 2,3 and 4? They are quite different, Part 3 is all XinYI.

Here is road 3;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAAi39GwjeU

(if you can get you tube)

This video contains roads 2 and 4 (and 1)

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjQwODYwNjA=.html



It is difficult to reconcile these with the LZH sets in all but set 3/4.

In ZHangShiJies video of Luohan 1, he says there are 9 such roads. They may have a longer system. I still have no idea where this is from.

[SHemmati]

Where did you get the idea that Shi Degen had 18 sets of 50 postures each?

but Degen and Zhu Tianxi in their 1Lu Luohan books show the complete version of Zhang Shijie's form, with about 80 movements or so and say it's only road 1 of their 18lu system! other forms, so-called 2lu, 3lu, 4lu we see from Zhu Tianxi's students have all more than 50 postures. in a Zhang Shijie video i previously linked, he also talks about such long roads, he says that his long "1Lu" is just 1 of the 18 Luohans!

What's done by Zhu Tianxi and his students are contained within, because it's all the same material.

No, NOT AT ALL! except something similar to only one part of Zhu Tianxi's 1st road (Degen's book), the part demonstrated by Zhang Shijie, in the 3rd+4th VCDs. Liu Zhenhai's VCDs and Zhu Tianxi's forms have nothing in common.

[RenDaHai]

In this video

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzgxOTEyNjg0.html

Zhu Tian Xi talks a bit about Luohan quan, at 40:00 mark.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Where does Sal's 144 Louhan fit into all of this?