Luohan Quan

[RenDaHai]

Its all so confusing.

But were somewhere now.

We know the Luohan Shi Ba SHou

We know that LZH Luohan 1-6 probably represent a good portion of the Shaolin 18 Luohan Quan.

We know there is overlap between LZH Luohan and ZhuTianXi Luohan.

However there appears to be more in the ZTX Luohan material which is hard to identify.

COuld this again be a Nanyuan XiYuan thing? Degen was famous for having learned both.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I think that Shi Degen just took all the routines he knew and made them be 18 Routines of Luohan Quan.

Cause after the first 2 routines, the movements are mostly from Rou Quan, Pao Quan, and other material.

[LFJ]

Ah, other Zhu Tianxi sets. I had always been suspicious of his material.

Here's the thing, there are a lot of movements and sequences from the long 108 Rouquan set he does in his other Luohan sets. That long Rouquan set also contains some Paoquan/Xinyiba sort of action but by far mainly many movements from his Chanyuangong and Liuhegong. It's basically a full moving extension of those Qigong sets. On Zhu Tianxi's own website it said he originally created such material himself, based on his personal experience and knowledge of Neigong. That's why you never see it anywhere else and have no historical reference to it, and it's quite unique.

As for Chanyuangong being an ancient predecessor to Chen Style Taijiquan, it is said that Chen Wangting went with Li Jiyu to Shaolin Yonghuatang (Nanyuan) and learned such things as Xuzhuang (empty stake) from Xinyiba and other skills. It should be something more like this: Xinyiba Zhuanggong

Unless something with historical weight can prove an older source to this stuff by Zhu Tianxi, I have to believe the information on his own website that said it's his own creation, considering how odd it is and the fact that you don't see it anywhere else but in his material.

As for the Luohanquan of Liu Zhenhai's series, we have different students of Shi Degen saying this is the 18 road Luohanquan he taught (6 sets/3 sections). It's been my suspicion that Zhu Tianxi must have mixed it with his Chanyuangong/Liuhegong to make different routines, like the long 108 Rouquan set he does. I think this is all his own material. The other Luohan stuff that is not just like that is already contained in Liu Zhenhai's series. Shi Degen was a major part of spreading Shaolin teaching in the last century. Everywhere you look, you can find people doing things he passed down and different versions and bits of the "Chashou Luohanquan" and the Zhang Shijie "Luohanquan yilu", but where do you see this other stuff by Zhu Tianxi?

[LFJ]

That's what I really think right now. I think there's one old 18 road Luohanquan which was taught by Shi Degen and is, at least in a good portion, presented in Liu Zhenhai's video series, containing all the common Luohanquan material. We have different sources saying this is the 18 road series taught by Shi Degen. The long Yilu performed by Zhang Shijie clearly comes from this series. Shi Degen was known to have taught snippets of larger systems, such as Zhaoyangquan, and that is what became popular, but Liu Zhenhai shows the rest of the system.

Now if you watch this video you will see Zhu Tianxi's 108 Rouquan set and Luohanquan erlu and silu. Compare the content to his Rouquan set. Then compare that to his Qigong sets, Chanyuangong/Liuhegong. It's basically that plus Paoquan/Xinyiba movements.

His website appears to be down now, but here are two newspaper articles from 河南法制报 (Henan Legal News) which talk about the Neigong stuff Zhu Tianxi originally created, including his Qigong sets.
http://www.hnfzb.com:8080/epaper/uni...5/12/12_47.htm
http://www.hnfzb.com:8080/epaper/uni...9/12/12_43.htm

So, in short, I think the old 18 road Luohanquan taught by Shi Degen is as presented in Liu Zhenhai's series. The long Zhang Shijie set is the popular snippet from the system that Shi Degen spread. The rest of Zhu Tianxi's Luohanquan comes from his 108 Rouquan which comes from his Chanyuangong and Liuhegong, which is his own created material, mixed with Paoquan and Xinyiba.

[LFJ]

It makes sense that the first Chashou Luohanquan would become popular, being the first road of the series. It also makes sense that the one by Zhang Shijie would become popular as the piece of the larger series Shi Degen spread to the public. But it is all contained within the 18 road series, presented by Liu Zhenhai.

Just looking at the rest of Zhu Tianxi's you can see its relation to his Neigong stuff, which is his own creation.

[LFJ]

The problem is, I've seen 0 historical evidence whatsoever for Zhu Tianxi's Rouquan or Chanyuangong, and it's only seen in his material. So it's hard to say these are ancient sets.

Regarding how much of the 18 road series is presented in Liu Zhenhai's VCDs, there is no rule for how many postures are in a section. Sometimes sections can be quite small. Sometimes "road" and "section" refer to the same thing. One long set can be 3 roads, each road 3 sections. That's 9 sections per set. With a six set series that 54 sections. Depending on what is referred to by "road" and "section" there can be 18 parts there. It makes enough sense.

Look at how Liu Zhenhai divides the 3 section/road Paoquan. It's almost certain he's divided the much longer Luohan series in an odd way which makes it difficult to count. But I think it should all be there.

[RenDaHai]

When it comes to Zhu Tian Xis Rou Quan I said that from the beginning, it is obvious by construction.

However,

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjQwODYwNjA=.html

Onthis video again, the Luohan at 12:10 Which I assume to be number 2, this is too well constructed.

Secondly I have seen a small section of it done by Shi Yong Wen.

If you watch it you will see it has classic repeated postures from part 1 (zhang shi jies). See it? It is like it is supposed to be performed directly on the end of it.

Then we have the Luohan at 6:52... Although this is hard to reconcile with Luohan quan, it fits very well to the form at 12:10, as though it is part of the same larger sequence.

As to san lou, the one with lots of XinYiBa in it.... That was filmed a while ago. It is also superior in construction to TianXis later sets like his rou quan. So I think it is real.


I do see your point but these forms are a bit too good. It is not easy to construct a good form as many rules and principles have to be obeyed.

Also if you look at Luohan Quan part 3 in the yellow books with Shi Yan Zhuang, that also has a slight rou quan like section at the end. Perhaps it is in the nature of Luohan quan?

Some of the techniques are unique, I do not think TianXi would have constructed new ones.


There has to be more to it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

to say in short:
LFJ, with good reasons, says Zhu Tianxi's long 108 movement Rou quan and so his Luohan quans are all his personal creations and are not from Degen!

hey hey hey guys, what can you say on this? Sal, can you defend your precious Rou quan set??!!! or maybe LFJ is right?!

The Rou Quan sets from Shaolin Encylopedia that I always go to for the roots of taiji and so on aren't those, they are these (and of which LZH learned and taught as well, which he has a video of, where did he get them from? AND of which there are those little yellow books for both these sets):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lskXBOfCIMA (Rou Quan Yi Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puIJY...NFjACpfRUw(Rou Quan Er Lu)

but, about Zhu Tianxi, the Rou Quan 108 that he does, there are videos from when he was young doing this set. So, I think that he said he made them to lay claim to them via his videos.

His video of the Six Harmony Gong is an abbreviated version of the much more complicated full version I have seen other people do, so in this case, he surely created that version of that set and it has nothing much to do with the other two Rou Quan sets he does.

The Rou Quan 13 postures is done by many other people from different lineages so I don't think he made up the movements or postures. In fact I have never seen him do this set at all. So that skips that set. I doubt he made that one up, which brings us only back to the 108 Rou Quan that he does.
That one on Youtube I have the video of him doing that set when he was young, it is different from the version he does on his commercial videos. He elaborates on the set there.

The postural movements from the 108 Rou Quan are found in Luohan Quan, like Ren pointed out AND in Taizi Chang Quan sets though. Shi Degen was known for his TAIZU CHANG QUAN, and other systems that were developed from Taizu have Rou Quan sets. Even in ancient times, because Dong Cheng is documented that he learned Rou Quan sets from his Shaolin taizu and hong quan teachers. So, if Zhu did learn Taizu Quan from Degen, then the 108 Rou Quan comes from that most likely. AND his Jingang Quan set from Degen, that is a lot like Rou Quan and Taizu Quan.

The individual postural movements of Zhu's Chan Yuan stuff is seen the many Chan Yuan Gong sets that are all over China. He just ordered them to create a set, but I didn't create the postures.

[SHemmati]

Also if you look at Luohan Quan part 3 in the yellow books with Shi Yan Zhuang, that also has a slight rou quan like section at the end. Perhaps it is in the nature of Luohan quan?

it doesn't seem so! small and big luohan quan in their original forms have nothing of these rou quan stains. however, in Dengfeng they do small and big luohan quan with many stains from other forms mostly including rou quan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

it doesn't seem so! just look at Xiao Luohan quan (Shi Deyang) and Da Luohan quan (Shi Dejun), with absolutely NO Rou quan, Pao quan, ... material, seem like two pure system on their own unique Buddhist basics! those Rou quan and other stains must be later constructed mixtures.

But the whole point of Luohan Quan is that it was mixed with neigong during the mid Ming era by Baiyufeng, Jue Yuan, and Li Sou. They had Rou Quan sets, which are shown in the curricilum list that I translated.
Early Luohan Quan was the 18 Postures and was an external style, but Ming era Luohan Quan is an internal style, it was merged with Rou Quan.

[SHemmati]

exactly, and that's why i in previous posts said these two sets seem older than Jue Yuan and others' activities. they are nothing like post-Jue Yuan materials. small and big luohan quans had existed in the early Song Dynasty, much before Jue Yuan.

[RenDaHai]

Well, it is interesting....

I need to ask my Shi Ye more on Luohan when I get the chance.

He always told me that 36 was the perfect number of moves for a set incidentaly, which fits the LZH forms well. San shi liu gou bu gou?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjQwODYwNjA=.html

Watch this again at 12.10...

This form is too good. If TianXi constructed it then he was genuinely a master at a young age. Could Degen have constructed it? It is possible, Degen knew hundreds literally of forms from both NanYuan and XiYuan. But I don't think so.

I think it must come from a sect of Shaolin that is not NanYuan or XiYuan. That or some secret transmission of one of them.

[Sal Canzonieri]

exactly, and that's why i in previous posts said these two sets seem older than Jue Yuan and others' activities. they are nothing like post-Jue Yuan material. they are like the same ancient 27 and 54 posture sets we hear about everywhere, those that are said to be inherited by Maioxing. albeit, some resources say that Miaoxing's version was an extended version of those three 27/54/108 posture sets, something like Liu Zhenhai and Yongxin/Yanzhuang's Luohan quans, extended versions of these two Xiao and Da forms. they've been taught widely by Miaoxing, most likely that's why we see these two forms almost everywhere.

* (of course, if Zhu Tianxi's Luohan forms are not from Degen, then his Luohan quan must have been like Liu Zhenhai VCDs. btw, at the time, Zhu is the closest to Degen and this is again a less likely guess for young Zhu to have created all those forms, this needs confirmation.)

Don't forget that the only reason anyone has seen these 27/54/108 Luohan posters is because Jue Yuan and Baiyufeng rediscovered them. The Luohan stuff before them wasn't arranged in sets, because no one used routines/sets, they used drills, they just did the same moves over and over. In Luohan's case, 18 specific moves. But its pretty much its their construction of these sets that exist. Not any sets exist before that, maybe in some isolated village, but not from Shaolin because they lost everything when everyone left and it was closed during the early Yuan dynasty period. It reopened later as a religious only place under Abbott Fuyu, he kicked out eveyrone else even other Buddhist sects that always resided there, under orders from the Yuan government.
So, Jue and Bai, later after making these Luohan sets merged it with other stuff to create 5 Fists style, Wu Quan (wasn't called Five Animals yet).

[Sal Canzonieri]

I just looked over the Shaolin rou quan and Taizuchang quan sets, I see pretty much all of Zhu's Chan Yuan gong and 108 set inside of them. There's nothing new in Zhu's sets.

[SHemmati]

this is Shi Yongwen's book. he has also been a student of Degen.

少林寺武术教材（释永文编著）


* pp.104-236 is on Luohan Quan, pp.104-8 gives a description, pp.109-183 demonstrates a 1lu luohan quan (it's small luohan plus an additional part quite different from Liu Zhenhai's 2nd VCD), p.184-5 is on some Luohan quans, zui luohan quan, etc, possibly from Degen, or another 18lu system, p.186-7 is on big luohan quan, it's two parts, seems to be the extended version, i.e., jin tong luohan plus the additional part, p.188-90 is on luohan 18 hands, xian tian 18 Shou. from p.191 on it goes into some deep description parts, i don't know what they are.

interestingly, pp.237-303 is on ZhaoYang quan, it must have good information on ChaoYang, GuanChao, and ZhoYang quan, which were the subject of discussion previously in this thread.