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Thread: Luohan Quan

  1. #16
    Greetings,

    Ah, so it is Omei. Told ya!!

    The documentary "This is Kung Fu" appears to be a compilation of Wushu clips that were shown on Chinese televison from time to time, like a snippet between major programs. What has been offered on video was not the one shown in NYC Chinatown at the Rosemary Theater.

    mickey

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post

    -----------------------------

    I looked through my archives and I found I have a copy of that film in Mandarin with English subtiles. That clip was indeed filmed at Shaolin itself, so it is not Emei. And, it says that the form he is doing is an 18 Luohan Shou set, 18 Luohan Hands, not Luohan Quan.
    Still, it is not one that I have ever seen. It looks like it is just a selection of random movements from Luohan style, which it might have been made just for the film to give an idea of Luohan Quan.
    But, it says the film is from 1994, not 1980s, he kinda looks about 50 years old in that clip, so today he is close to 70 years old, yes?
    Also, it does not give his name at all.

    I looked through as many Shaolin clips as I could so far, but I haven't found him in any of them yet.
    Sorry I couldn't have been of more help, if I ever come across him in anything, I will let you know here in this thread.
    Cool, thanks very much for checking! I think there may be different versions of this documentary. Most of the footage of Jet Li for example is early 80's so although some versions of the Docu may have come out in 1994 they clearly used archived footage, which means dating the video is very hard. In the video it is referred to as 18 luohan quan, not as luohan 18 hands. This is another variant style. (there are 18 luohans, each with different characteristics, typically this kung fu would have 9 or 18 sets. 18 luohan fist is the long name of luohan quan, luohan shi ba shou or 18 hands is a different substyle from shaolin, incidentally no one knows the original 18 hands). He may have compiled the form for the movie, but one would only have to look at the way he walked a circle in the form (not a shaolin move), or the expression on his face and his impeccable timing to see he is a high level expert.

    I don't recognise the temple in the background, and i am rather familiar with dengfengs various temples. If it were filmed near shaolin I think they would simply have used a famous shaolin master of the time, and filmed shaolins luohan quan. I think this is not filmed in the 90s style,even for china. I think this clip will be an 80's clip. I also estimate the master to be around 70 now.

    I can't imagine it is ermei, it doesn't fit. There is a style of Luohan quan practiced in kaifeng which is a little close, but not the same. But If this guy was from this area my teacher would certainly know him. Thousands of famous masters have visited shaolin over the centuries, anyone could have taken this style home with him to any part of china at any time. Its tough to find.

    Thanks again for your input, everyone

  3. #18
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    @ sal,

    Yeah, I certainly remember the girl doing snake style in the cave...( snake in the cave, almost an inuendo)... Wushu hottie. She might as well have been naked.

    Incidently I always thought of this as just a modern set, has anyone seen an extended style which only uses snake movements?

  4. #19
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    I'd distinguish Luohan from Shaolin

    There's a consistency within Shaolin Luohan forms that is unique. They almost always emphasis some movements involving bowing the hands or a similar 'luohan' like gesture. For this reason, I wouldn't go as far as to say 'it is just a way of saying "Shaolin Quan".' It's a specific subset of Shaolinquan. However, I understand Sal's intention behind this comment and agree with it in general principle.

    There's an interesting Luohan DVD in our Grandmasters series (which is mostly Emei-based masters):
    Grandmaster Peng Gaoji: Arhat Fist
    luohanquan 罗汉拳
    In the final years of the Qing Dynasty, Yang Zhaoyuan of Leshan Mountain followed his master Shi Zhipu to Songshan Shaolin Temple in Henan Province to study martial arts. Yang mastered the Shaolin method and returned to Leshan to teach Arhat Fist in the Neijiang district. An Arhat, or luohan in Chinese, is an enlightened being of Buddhist mythology often imbued with magical powers.

    I also did a series outlining the entire Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan form by Shi Guolin.
    Xiao Luohan: The Complete Shaolin Form
    Part 1 2001 July/August
    Part 2 2001 September/October
    Part 3 2001 November/December
    Part 4 2002 January/February Shaolin Special

    Here are the lyrics from that article series.
    1. yue bei shi – prepare
    2. chi shi – beginning posture
    3. shuang guan tie men – double shutting iron doors
    4. yao zi fan shen – sparrow hawk turns its body
    5. shuang quan guan er – double fists through the ear
    6. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
    7. gong bu shuang liao shou – bow step, double upwards hand
    8. ma bu shuang zai quan – horse step, double planting fist
    9. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
    10. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
    11. tui bu zuo chung quan – backwards step, left thrusting fist.
    12. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
    13. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
    14. er qi jiao – two rising legs
    15. sun tong bei – smooth through the back
    16. fu jian chung quan – protect the shoulder, thrusting fist.
    17. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
    18. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
    19. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
    20. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
    21 gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    22. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
    23. er qi jiao – two rising legs
    24. ti shi quan xin pao – lift knee, fist heart cannon
    25. fu er shuang chung quan – protect the ear, double thrusting fist
    26. tao ding chung quan – above the head, thrusting fist
    27. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
    28. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
    29. tui bu chung quan – backwards step, thrusting fist.
    30. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
    31. lao hu da zhang zui – old tiger opens its mouth wide
    32. zuo dun tui – left snap kick
    33. gong bu tui zhang – bow step pushing palms
    34. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    35. tao ding che zhang – above the head, cutting palm
    36. long xing bu – dragon form step
    37. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    38. ba wang ju ding – conquering king lifts the urn
    39. lien huan zhao – continuous claw
    40. hui shen shuang an zhang – turn body, double pressing palms
    41. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
    42. hu jian ben shou – defend the shoulder, shoving palm
    43. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
    44. tong zi bai fo – youth bows to Buddha
    45. zuo pi tui – left axe kick
    46. luo han suai jiao – arhat sleeping
    47. ti shi shuang an zhang – lift knee, double pressing palm
    48. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
    49. shuang ben shou – double pushing palm
    50: pu bu zuo che zhang – crouching step, left cutting palm
    51: pu bu you che zhang – crouching step, right cutting palm
    52. xie bu tui zhang – resting step, push palm
    53. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
    54. er qi jiao – two rising legs
    55. gu shu pan gen – ancient tree gnarls its roots
    56. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    57. xie bu shuang zai quan – resting step, double planting fist.
    58. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
    59. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
    60. san bu gai quan – forward step, cover fist
    61. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    62. duan bu zai quan – squatting step, planting fist
    63. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    64. gui bu zhuang zhao – kneeling step, hitting elbow
    65. xie bu chung quan – resting step, thrusting fist
    66. gong bu che zhang – bow step, cutting palm
    67. ju huo xiao tian – raise the torch to burn the sky
    68. ma bu xia zai quan – horse step, downward planting fist
    69. tao ding san chung quan – above the head, three thrusting fists
    70. ma bu do jian – horse step, shaking shoulder
    71. ma bu zuo pan zhuo – horse step, left elbow
    72. ma bu you pan zhuo – horse step, right elbow
    73. zhuan shen guo quan – turn around, hooking fist
    74. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    75. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    76. gong bu dao quan – bow step, pestle fist
    77. tian wang tao ta – heavenly king lifts the pagoda
    78. da peng zhan zi – roc spreads its wings
    79. ji zhang pu bu – clap, crouching step
    80. gong bu liao shou – bow step, upwards hand
    81. ho xiao tui – backwards sweeping leg
    82. gong bu san tui zhang – bow step, three pushing palms
    83. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
    84. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
    85. sao shi – ending pose
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  5. #20
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    Luohan

    Hi Sal
    How many old Shaolin traditions have you run across that use "Shaolin Luohan Men" 纙漢門 as a discriptor?

    I understand that Sun Yu Fung's Lohan Men and Miao Xing's Luohan are not the same. What is your understanding of the term "Luohan Men"?
    r.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by r.(shaolin) View Post
    Hi Sal
    How many old Shaolin traditions have you run across that use "Shaolin Luohan Men" 纙漢門 as a discriptor?

    I understand that Sun Yu Fung's Lohan Men and Miao Xing's Luohan are not the same. What is your understanding of the term "Luohan Men"?
    r.
    No, I've only come across Shaolin Luohan Men in reference to Sun Yufung's martial arts, in the Shandong area. Sun's teacher Yuan Tung Tan was from the Shrine areas of Shaolin, far as I know. So, Yuan might have taught a lot of different Shaolin sets under the name of Luohan.

    Miao Xing's Luohan was different. I think his sets were from directly from the main Shaolin school.

    There is also the Luohan style that comes from (Zi Ran style's) Wan Laisheng's Luohan teacher, who was Liu Bai Chuan (whose teacher was Yang Cheng Yun). Liu learned “Xiao Luohan” and “Luohan Shenda” from Yang.

    And there was the Luohan Quan that Shi De Gen taught to those in the Dengfeng area of Henan (Shaolin area), such as Zhu tianxi and others.

    None of these Luohan sets from these 4 different lineages are the same at all.
    Some of it is Hong Quan sets and Taizu Quan sets as well.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    There's a consistency within Shaolin Luohan forms that is unique. They almost always emphasis some movements involving bowing the hands or a similar 'luohan' like gesture. For this reason, I wouldn't go as far as to say 'it is just a way of saying "Shaolin Quan".' It's a specific subset of Shaolinquan. However, I understand Sal's intention behind this comment and agree with it in general principle.

    There's an interesting Luohan DVD in our Grandmasters series (which is mostly Emei-based masters):
    Grandmaster Peng Gaoji: Arhat Fist
    luohanquan 罗汉拳
    In the final years of the Qing Dynasty, Yang Zhaoyuan of Leshan Mountain followed his master Shi Zhipu to Songshan Shaolin Temple in Henan Province to study martial arts. Yang mastered the Shaolin method and returned to Leshan to teach Arhat Fist in the Neijiang district. An Arhat, or luohan in Chinese, is an enlightened being of Buddhist mythology often imbued with magical powers.

    I also did a series outlining the entire Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan form by Shi Guolin.
    Xiao Luohan: The Complete Shaolin Form
    Part 1 2001 July/August
    Part 2 2001 September/October
    Part 3 2001 November/December
    Part 4 2002 January/February Shaolin Special

    Here are the lyrics from that article series.
    1. yue bei shi – prepare
    2. chi shi – beginning posture
    3. shuang guan tie men – double shutting iron doors
    4. yao zi fan shen – sparrow hawk turns its body
    5. shuang quan guan er – double fists through the ear
    6. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
    7. gong bu shuang liao shou – bow step, double upwards hand
    8. ma bu shuang zai quan – horse step, double planting fist
    9. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
    10. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
    11. tui bu zuo chung quan – backwards step, left thrusting fist.
    12. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
    13. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
    14. er qi jiao – two rising legs
    15. sun tong bei – smooth through the back
    16. fu jian chung quan – protect the shoulder, thrusting fist.
    17. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
    18. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
    19. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
    20. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
    21 gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    22. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
    23. er qi jiao – two rising legs
    24. ti shi quan xin pao – lift knee, fist heart cannon
    25. fu er shuang chung quan – protect the ear, double thrusting fist
    26. tao ding chung quan – above the head, thrusting fist
    27. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
    28. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
    29. tui bu chung quan – backwards step, thrusting fist.
    30. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
    31. lao hu da zhang zui – old tiger opens its mouth wide
    32. zuo dun tui – left snap kick
    33. gong bu tui zhang – bow step pushing palms
    34. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    35. tao ding che zhang – above the head, cutting palm
    36. long xing bu – dragon form step
    37. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    38. ba wang ju ding – conquering king lifts the urn
    39. lien huan zhao – continuous claw
    40. hui shen shuang an zhang – turn body, double pressing palms
    41. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
    42. hu jian ben shou – defend the shoulder, shoving palm
    43. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
    44. tong zi bai fo – youth bows to Buddha
    45. zuo pi tui – left axe kick
    46. luo han suai jiao – arhat sleeping
    47. ti shi shuang an zhang – lift knee, double pressing palm
    48. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
    49. shuang ben shou – double pushing palm
    50: pu bu zuo che zhang – crouching step, left cutting palm
    51: pu bu you che zhang – crouching step, right cutting palm
    52. xie bu tui zhang – resting step, push palm
    53. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
    54. er qi jiao – two rising legs
    55. gu shu pan gen – ancient tree gnarls its roots
    56. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    57. xie bu shuang zai quan – resting step, double planting fist.
    58. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
    59. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
    60. san bu gai quan – forward step, cover fist
    61. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    62. duan bu zai quan – squatting step, planting fist
    63. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    64. gui bu zhuang zhao – kneeling step, hitting elbow
    65. xie bu chung quan – resting step, thrusting fist
    66. gong bu che zhang – bow step, cutting palm
    67. ju huo xiao tian – raise the torch to burn the sky
    68. ma bu xia zai quan – horse step, downward planting fist
    69. tao ding san chung quan – above the head, three thrusting fists
    70. ma bu do jian – horse step, shaking shoulder
    71. ma bu zuo pan zhuo – horse step, left elbow
    72. ma bu you pan zhuo – horse step, right elbow
    73. zhuan shen guo quan – turn around, hooking fist
    74. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    75. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    76. gong bu dao quan – bow step, pestle fist
    77. tian wang tao ta – heavenly king lifts the pagoda
    78. da peng zhan zi – roc spreads its wings
    79. ji zhang pu bu – clap, crouching step
    80. gong bu liao shou – bow step, upwards hand
    81. ho xiao tui – backwards sweeping leg
    82. gong bu san tui zhang – bow step, three pushing palms
    83. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
    84. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
    85. sao shi – ending pose
    Well, sure the Luohan Quan no matter from what lineage at the very least show the 18 Luohan Hands postures. So, they connect to each other in that way. But often the sets, even if they have the same name, were pretty different from each other, depending on which lineage it came from.

    But, many times you might people teaching "Luohan Quan" and it is material like typical Shaolin, such as Xiao and Da Hong quan, Pao Quan, and Luohan sets.
    So, the name is used in a confusing way.

    But, yes, of course, the real Luohan Quan is a specific core of material, regardless of the lineage, that draws from the material developed by Jue Yuan, Bai Yufeng, and Li Sou. This is a specific core of material that they developed, which became known as Luohan Quan later on, specifically because some of the sets they developed or had roots in were named 18 Luohan Hands.

    The tough thing about Luohan Quan today at Shaolin is that the main set is Da Luohan Quan and barely anyone knows the full set of 108 postures (and 365 movements). I know that one version of it is taught in Dengfeng by the Liu family in their famous schools.
    Then, what they show in exhibitions is called Da Luohan Quan, but is really an abbreviated set that is learned for show by most of the "monks" teaching or doing shows at Shaolin. So, they never get to learn the big 108 set because it is too long and complicate for them. (See how things die out?)

    The Xiao Luohan Quan is another problematic set. There is really a Xiao Luohan Quan set that goes way back to Jue Yuan. It's not that short of a set.
    But, then there is this abbreviated version of it being done in Shaolin as well.
    And sometimes the short version of Da Hong Quan is called Xiao Hong Quan as well! So, then it becomes even more confusing.

    Correction:
    The version in the magazine is the shortened version of Da Luohan Quan, which is often called Xiao Luohan today. It's not the actual Xiao Luohan Quan set from ancient times.

    I will post videos of the various Luohan sets so people can see them and not be so confused.
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 09-29-2009 at 09:48 AM. Reason: correction to post

  8. #23
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    That Emei Luohan is from the later Qing Dynasty era.
    It appears to be a Five Animals set, which some of the early Luohan is like.
    It's a lot different from the 18 Luohan Hands derived Shaolin Luohan sets.
    Very southern Shaolin like, as is much Emei martial arts, very Hung Gar looking.

    See the thread I did on Ming dynasty Shaolin from Jue Yuan and Bai Yuefeng, where I listed the forms they taught.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    No, I've only come across Shaolin Luohan Men in reference to Sun Yufung's martial arts, in the Shandong area. Sun's teacher Yuan Tung Tan was from the Shrine areas of Shaolin, far as I know. So, Yuan might have taught a lot of different Shaolin sets under the name of Luohan.

    Miao Xing's Luohan was different. I think his sets were from directly from the main Shaolin school.

    There is also the Luohan style that comes from (Zi Ran style's) Wan Laisheng's Luohan teacher, who was Liu Bai Chuan (whose teacher was Yang Cheng Yun). Liu learned “Xiao Luohan” and “Luohan Shenda” from Yang.

    And there was the Luohan Quan that Shi De Gen taught to those in the Dengfeng area of Henan (Shaolin area), such as Zhu tianxi and others.

    None of these Luohan sets from these 4 different lineages are the same at all.
    Some of it is Hong Quan sets and Taizu Quan sets as well.

    羅漢門
    派 - Pai
    家 - Jia
    門 - Gate
    Each of these terms have a different implication when used to describe a martial arts tradition.


    Although there are many specific sets that have the character's 羅漢 Luohan in their name, "Shaolin Luohan Quan" and :Shaolin Luohan Men" were a way of say that a martial art tradition came from "Shaolin" or, out "from the gate/school of Shaolin". If I'm reading you correctly, I would agree that these Shaolin traditions draw or are based on the material developed by Jue Yuan, and Bai Yufeng combined with older Shaolin methods and with Hong (洪) Quan. Shaolin Luohan school had a large number of sets not just 18.

    I as well know that there are at least four other Shaolin Luohan traditions besides the one my teacher learned - all came from Henan.. However, none of the sets from these different lineages are the same. Having said that there are some similarities in terms of basics and techniques.

    1. Sun Yufung's Louhan which comes from the Shandong area. Sun's teacher was Yuan Tung Tan was from Luoyang, far as I know.

    2. The Luohan style that cames from Liu Bai Chuan taught by Yang Cheng Yun.

    3. There is a Luohan tradition taught by Shi De Gen.

    4. and Miao Xing's Luohan style.
    Last edited by r.(shaolin); 09-28-2009 at 05:50 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post


    I also did a series outlining the entire Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan form by Shi Guolin.
    Xiao Luohan: The Complete Shaolin Form
    Part 1 2001 July/August
    Part 2 2001 September/October
    Part 3 2001 November/December
    Part 4 2002 January/February Shaolin Special

    Here are the lyrics from that article series.
    1. yue bei shi – prepare
    2. chi shi – beginning posture
    3. shuang guan tie men – double shutting iron doors
    4. yao zi fan shen – sparrow hawk turns its body
    5. shuang quan guan er – double fists through the ear
    6. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
    7. gong bu shuang liao shou – bow step, double upwards hand
    8. ma bu shuang zai quan – horse step, double planting fist
    9. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
    10. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
    11. tui bu zuo chung quan – backwards step, left thrusting fist.
    12. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
    13. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
    14. er qi jiao – two rising legs
    15. sun tong bei – smooth through the back
    16. fu jian chung quan – protect the shoulder, thrusting fist.
    17. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
    18. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
    19. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
    20. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
    21 gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    22. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
    23. er qi jiao – two rising legs
    24. ti shi quan xin pao – lift knee, fist heart cannon
    25. fu er shuang chung quan – protect the ear, double thrusting fist
    26. tao ding chung quan – above the head, thrusting fist
    27. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
    28. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
    29. tui bu chung quan – backwards step, thrusting fist.
    30. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
    31. lao hu da zhang zui – old tiger opens its mouth wide
    32. zuo dun tui – left snap kick
    33. gong bu tui zhang – bow step pushing palms
    34. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    35. tao ding che zhang – above the head, cutting palm
    36. long xing bu – dragon form step
    37. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    38. ba wang ju ding – conquering king lifts the urn
    39. lien huan zhao – continuous claw
    40. hui shen shuang an zhang – turn body, double pressing palms
    41. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
    42. hu jian ben shou – defend the shoulder, shoving palm
    43. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
    44. tong zi bai fo – youth bows to Buddha
    45. zuo pi tui – left axe kick
    46. luo han suai jiao – arhat sleeping
    47. ti shi shuang an zhang – lift knee, double pressing palm
    48. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
    49. shuang ben shou – double pushing palm
    50: pu bu zuo che zhang – crouching step, left cutting palm
    51: pu bu you che zhang – crouching step, right cutting palm
    52. xie bu tui zhang – resting step, push palm
    53. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
    54. er qi jiao – two rising legs
    55. gu shu pan gen – ancient tree gnarls its roots
    56. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    57. xie bu shuang zai quan – resting step, double planting fist.
    58. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
    59. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
    60. san bu gai quan – forward step, cover fist
    61. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    62. duan bu zai quan – squatting step, planting fist
    63. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    64. gui bu zhuang zhao – kneeling step, hitting elbow
    65. xie bu chung quan – resting step, thrusting fist
    66. gong bu che zhang – bow step, cutting palm
    67. ju huo xiao tian – raise the torch to burn the sky
    68. ma bu xia zai quan – horse step, downward planting fist
    69. tao ding san chung quan – above the head, three thrusting fists
    70. ma bu do jian – horse step, shaking shoulder
    71. ma bu zuo pan zhuo – horse step, left elbow
    72. ma bu you pan zhuo – horse step, right elbow
    73. zhuan shen guo quan – turn around, hooking fist
    74. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
    75. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
    76. gong bu dao quan – bow step, pestle fist
    77. tian wang tao ta – heavenly king lifts the pagoda
    78. da peng zhan zi – roc spreads its wings
    79. ji zhang pu bu – clap, crouching step
    80. gong bu liao shou – bow step, upwards hand
    81. ho xiao tui – backwards sweeping leg
    82. gong bu san tui zhang – bow step, three pushing palms
    83. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
    84. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
    85. sao shi – ending pose
    YES! This IS luohan Quan. This is about the second best version that exists today. A long while ago there were nine sets, representing the characteristics of the 18 luohans. This form is a combination of two of the sets, namely 'chao mei luohan' and 'fuhu luohan'. There is a zuo shan stance halfway through the form, most of the schools in dengfeng only practice to this halfway point.

    This particular version you have listed is close to that in Tagou's set of books written by Liu Hai Chao. I learned this version as well as the version shi Deyang does (halfway, first half also abreviated), and also a third and better version.

    I say this is the second best set because the best must be considered as the one practiced by DeGen Da Shi. His form is the same as this one, although slightly shorter in the first half (not so many repeated straight punches) also with a few more unique stances. It goes all the way through to roc spreads its wings then sweep, tornado, outside cresent-zuo shan. Interestingly it does not contain the dragon steps (or drunken steps) used in most of the dengfeng versions and in the one above. This should be the same version as practiced by Zhu Tian Xi (anyone have a video?).

    The character of the form is really important in Luohan Quan. All the versions I have seen except this one from Degen Da shi lack the character. Its part in performance and part in the specific form.

    The term 'xiao luohan' is a modern naming culture. Actually it is the last Luohan quan actually practiced inside the temple (before communist era). Thus it is just referred to as Luohan quan. A lot of forms referred to as Xiao and Da nowadays were not always so. Often forms that were form DengFeng county have been called Da (greater area, e.g Da tongbei, Da pao quan, Da luohan) and forms that are now called xiao (i.e xiao tong bei, xiao pao, xiao luohan) are the forms most recently practiced in shaolin temple. They were originally just tong bei quan, pao quan, luohan quan. You will find the shaolin temple forms tend to be much longer (usually consisting of 3 sets linked together) they also contain exceptional poetic symmetry. Not to say deng feng does not have good forms, there are great forms there too, but they are forms which may have stopped being practiced at shaolin a long time ago, or were never practiced there. They are all shaolin pai though. ( I must note xiao and da hong quan were always xiao and da hong quan, and, all things considered, perhaps shaolins greatest forms).

    I have encountered about 40 forms that could all claim to be shaolin Luohan quan. Since the last version practiced at shaolin was the one by Degen Da Shi then we must consider this as the Final Evolution of Shaolin Temples Luohan Quan (things evolve constantly, what if we were to consider the physics of Isaac Newton as the original physics and then abandon the last few centuries of evolution?) So, fascinating as it is to look for earlier incarnations we must have a cut off point.

    Some families still retain a 9 set luohan quan, the sets have a symmetry spread over all the forms so can be practiced as one (if you have the stamina).

    Typically the two surviving are the one we now refer to as xiao luohan (a seriously cut down version of the one above) and a form we refer to as da luohan or yi lu luohan, a good version is done by Zhang Shi Jie, he wheres white robes and does a great performance, you have prob all seen it on you tube. In the 9 set luohan quan i have seen these are yi lu and er lu. The second half of xiao luohan is san lu.

    so a version constructed for competition which begins with tong zi bai fo... this one is not worth learning but is the most common version around today.

    There are several other epic (long) luohan quan forms, they all contain a spattering of moves similar to other luohan forms, all are probably abreviations of an earlier longer complete substyle of luohan quan.

  11. #26
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    Hold on, I think some things are not correct exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    YES! This IS luohan Quan. This is about the second best version that exists today. A long while ago there were nine sets, representing the characteristics of the 18 luohans. This form is a combination of two of the sets, namely 'chao mei luohan' and 'fuhu luohan'. There is a zuo shan stance halfway through the form, most of the schools in dengfeng only practice to this halfway point.
    The set shown in the 4 issues of the magazine is the abbreviated modern version of Da Luohan Quan, which here is being called Xiao Luohan Quan.
    It is not the original Xiao Luohan Quan at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    This particular version you have listed is close to that in Tagou's set of books written by Liu Hai Chao. I learned this version as well as the version shi Deyang does (halfway, first half also abreviated), and also a third and better version.
    It is only a little bit similar to the set in the Tagou books. The set in volume 3 in the Tagou book is the Da Luohan Quan set that Dengfeng area does. It is not even the complete set, though it is very long. It is missing a section and missing the last section. I have another book by Liu Zhen Hai which shows the Da Luohan set with the missing sections, but that one is missing a different section. I have been told by someone from there to put the two together and then I will have the complete set (the sets in the books were marked with missing sections to see if someone only learned from books not from a teacher).

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    I say this is the second best set because the best must be considered as the one practiced by DeGen Da Shi. His form is the same as this one, although slightly shorter in the first half (not so many repeated straight punches) also with a few more unique stances. It goes all the way through to roc spreads its wings then sweep, tornado, outside cresent-zuo shan. Interestingly it does not contain the dragon steps (or drunken steps) used in most of the dengfeng versions and in the one above. This should be the same version as practiced by Zhu Tian Xi (anyone have a video?).
    It is NOT the set practiced by Shi Degen at all. His Luohan Quan Yi Lu is not at all like this set and not at all like the Da Luoan, Xiao Luohan, or Er Lu Luohan sets shown in the 3 volumes of the Tagou books.
    I have the original book that was published 20 years ago or more showing Shi Degen's in drawings doing his Luohan Quan Yi Lu set, the full set.
    Zhu Tian Xi has recently republished this book, I have it too, it is exactly the same.

    I will post a list of videos showing the different Luohan sets. Including Shi Degen's version.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Typically the two surviving are the one we now refer to as xiao luohan (a seriously cut down version of the one above) and a form we refer to as da luohan or yi lu luohan, a good version is done by Zhang Shi Jie, he wheres white robes and does a great performance, you have prob all seen it on you tube. In the 9 set luohan quan i have seen these are yi lu and er lu. The second half of xiao luohan is san lu.
    Zhang Shi Jie's video is only the first 60 of the 85 postures of Shi Degen's Luohan Quna Yi Lu set. it is missing the remaining section.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    There are several other epic (long) luohan quan forms, they all contain a spattering of moves similar to other luohan forms, all are probably abreviations of an earlier longer complete substyle of luohan quan.
    This is true.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Oh,

    I'll add something. I am currently in China and will be for the forseeable future. My master Shi Yong Wen was a student of Degen Da shi (and of wu shan lin, and of su xi and many other famous masters).

    He wrote the first book on Luohan quan published after the formation of PRC (back in the late 70's). Many of the versions in DengFeng were simply learned form his books. It is the version as done by Degen Da shi. I cant speak for the version by shi guo lin but it is definatly much better than the version at Tagou (which i also know).

    Anyway I am translating this book at the moment. It is rather short but contains the full luohan quan, and my master has the copyright and original retro photos. Anyway, does anyone know if there is a market for short books on forms? Does anyone know if a magazine like KungFu magazine would publish it in their magazine? Or would it be better to combine it into a larger compilation of all his books? I wish to help him publish his books for the west.

    By the thanks everyone for your info on this thread... I WILL find this man and I WILL learn this version of luohan quan!
    Can you give the Chinese characters for Shi Yong Wen and for the title of his Luohan Quan book? I made have it. I have just about every book in Chinese on martial arts concerning Shaolin, except for a few that I am missing.

  13. #28
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    lohan/arhat

    these are generally regarded as the 18 buddhist "saints" with each depicted in a different posture of deep meditation.

    could it be that any set that expresses these postures is a memory tool?
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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    Luohan Quan videos readily available to see

    Here's as many as I could find of Luohan style videos, if you find more to add, let me know and I will update.
    By the way, Shaolin Quan was originally called Shaolin Chui, as was Luohan Quan originally called Luohan Chui, before the Qing Dynasty era.

    Luohan Quan Yi Lu taught by Shi Degen - also called Xiao Luohan Quan in Dengfeng / Tagou school (as taught by Liu Zhen Hai):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3q4vhzr58 First 60 of the 85 postures
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO3k55h_HLA (same form, black background)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ppmJVwuOM0 (also shortened)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sKH-zLYjEg (also shortened)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xrEtJjUTI (also shortened)

    Da Luohan Quan (as taught by Liu Zhen Hai), first 30 postures of 85 in correct order:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRPOiHl18mA

    Lao Jia (old frame) Luohan Quan (also called 3 Section Luohan) - Shi Deyang's version (this set often called Xiao Luohan today because it is like a summary of Da Luohan):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDRkqO4Y7U4

    Shaolin Er Lu Luohan Quan (also known as Refined Luohan Quan) - a modern times set:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZzRcb5SXTY (shortened)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0IDQpkzPVc (just first third of set)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnUJhm8O7Q (too fast and much abbreviated)

    Shaolin Luohan Quan 27 Postures:
    (no videos yet)

    Shaolin San Lu Luohan Quan:
    (no videos yet)

    Related sets:

    Shaolin Luohan Duan Da:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0vheDniwQE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQDYU98FTTs

    Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Zhang - 18 PALMS not hands (very rare to see):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rum8qAFB8Wc

    Luohan Shi Ba Shou (originally from Shandong Hua Quan style before entering Shaolin):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raSvF3CiLx4

    Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou Yi Lu (set 1 of 8 sets):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA (Shi deyang's totally mixed up short version, missing moves and moves out of order)

    Shaolin Damo (also known as Luohan) Shi Ba Shou:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76m4-enGS4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q-Z4tiFkus
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu4YPOG8uvg

    Shaolin Luohan Pu Shen Chui:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYQKuio8mVs

    Shaolin Xinyi Luohan Chui:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbS0aXhvVGA

    Unknown Luohan Quan sets:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yP91ZyILso
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMNCLIkcohA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCWfj9zVU4Y
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3mbYdVPDKc
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d8OMqscdrw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZljLs_gYIOs

    Da Luohan Quan from Chan family Nei Jia Quan style (derived from original Shaolin Luohan Quan in Henan from the 1600s):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRjvN5U8tRc

    Southern Shaolin - Choy Li Fut Luohan Pu Hu Quan (Fuk Fu Kune), the closest you can get to seeing what Luohan Quan might have originally looked like since Choy Gar is directly from Northern Shaolin, it is only two-three generations away from founder Monk Jue Yuan. Jue Yuan taught Yi Quan, who taught the founder of Choy (Chu) Gar.
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-15-2009 at 11:55 AM. Reason: corrections made

  15. #30
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    that's a lot of material.

    I liked the Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou 18 Hands set after watching them all.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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