Luohan Quan

[LFJ]

@SHemmati

Okay, where does the idea of these being a "classical" 3 road Luohan system come from, and what is the justification for calling them classical?

Boxing sets tend to go through cycles of expansion and simplification. Is it not possible that these are extracts from the longer 18 road system, presented by Liu Zhenhai, that have become popular and have been extended in different schools since?

[RenDaHai]

Ok,

When it comes to Da Luohan these are the three major varients;

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfHRsGJqfg8 ------Refined Luohan

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xrEtJjUTI ------ Da Luohan

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3q4vhzr58 ----- ZhangShiJie



Of all of these number 2 is the most common amongst the old teachers of DengFeng. It is also the most practical of the sets, Zhang Shi Jies has very specific moves while 2. has standard moves.

Zhang SHi Jies is clearly the varient of this form (2. Da Luohan) that we are told was taught by Shi Degen. I think that 2. is the version taught by LiGenSeng.

As to 1.

1. is common amongst the big schools. This is the competition version of Luohan. It is called refined as it was refined from a longer luohan set in the 80/90s. I know this because people call it the competition Luohan and because I was literally told ' I remember when they were making this form in...' When I showed it to an older teacher.

That does not make it any less of a good set though. You can see it has been refined to follow the standard Da Luohan (2.) largely however including movements from a later Luohan set.


Then we have the LZH sets. Now All we can assume is that 1. was refined by studying sets 3,4,5 of LZH. Form 6 is its own form and is in the book by Yan Zhuang as 3 lo luohan quan. We also know that LZH 1+2 is Yi Lu Luohan Quan. SO all we can assume is that sets 3,4,5 together constitute Er Lo Luohan Quan, a very long version.

This way LZH covers the complete 3 lu luohan Quan. Above form 1. is a refinement of LZH,3,4,5 form 2 is another sect but is mainly LZH 3,4 while form 3 (Zhang Shi Jies) is somewhere between them.


WHat about the old Encyclopedia... THe Er Lu Luohan in that is nothing other than the standard 2. except a bit longer with more repeated movements. Just like XHQ is now often taught as 24 moves instead of 54, so Luohan 2. above is probably a shortened version of the encyclopedia version. Jjust like 1. is a shortened version of a very long luohan.


HYPOTHESIS:

There are Xiao Luohan and Da Luohan. These are slightly different styles of Luohan and created at different times.

Xiao Luohan has part 1 and part 2. Part 1 is common to all sects. Part 2 appears in several as LZH 2 and in the second part of the YongWen set and in Tagous books. The second part is similar to LZH 2 but shorter.

Da Luohan has many roads, unspecified. LZH 3+4 is Da luohan. As are videos 2 and 3 above. Again, every sect has this form. Er lu Da Luohan, san lu da luohan is represented by LZH 5 and 6 and by Zhang Shi Jies extra sets.

The form 1. above, the refined, competition Luohan quan. This is an attempt to combine all the Da Luohan sets into one concise sets. So it is Da Luohan 1 + a bit of Da Luohan 2, 3 etc.

[SHemmati]

@SHemmati

Okay, where does the idea of these being a "classical" 3 road Luohan system come from, and what is the justification for calling them classical?... Boxing sets tend to go through cycles of expansion and simplification. Is it not possible that these are extracts from the longer 18 road system, presented by Liu Zhenhai, that have become popular and have been extended in different schools since?

the classical/old/lao luohan dates a 1000 years back, while the concept of 18 luohan dates a few hundreds back, to the Ming dynasty. based on the old luohan quan they later developed some 18 luohan quan systems. Liu's forms, as an 18 luohan quan system are such a system. they're extensions of the old luohan quan, not the old luohan quan being extracted from them. classically, there's also a most famous luohan 108 combat methods. count that as the 3rd set.

[SHemmati]

When it comes to Da Luohan these are the three major varients...

big luohan is originally called jin tong xiao luohan. it's done with a different body mechanic and a bit different sequence in Dengfeng, as Zhang Shijie does. this version is also used under different names as a form of various 18 luohan quans. later on, they've added an irrelevant part to the end of jin tong luohan and called it big luohan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm, well, we have a snapshot of what Shaolin was teaching during Baiyufeng's time via the quanpu I translated. If you go back and look at that, seeing what Luohan routines are listed tells you that there are 18 Luohan qigong, 18 Luohan hands, and 18 Roads of Luohan Quan.
No xiao and da luohan quan is named. So, they arose after the massacre of over 200 martial monks, after 1641. Because before that Shaolin had been doing what Jueyuan restructered it to be. It has to be reconstructed after that date, and the gates system was put in, so that each gate did different things so that there one gate was defeated the others would not be. What were monks teaching before that massacre? Well, Dong Cheng learned Hong staff, Da Hong Quan, Pao Chui, Rou Quan, Taizu Chang Quan, (and Tongbi Quan???).

Changing topic:

My margin notes written decade ago in the Shaolin Encylopedia say:

first Luohan Quan 27 posture (V2 P 188) set, "same as Lao Luohan's beginning section and beginning of Lao / 3 Section Luohan Quan".

er lu luohan p 194, "same as yi lu of Shi Degen's lineage, and almost same as Xiao Luohan in Tegou book except for longer ending."
from pages 205 to 208 the set doesn't match the other versions.

Also, "LZH's book's Da Luohan is like mostly Tegou's Refined Luohan, except has more sections inside it and is longer. Some long strings of posture start and stop and then postures match up again to Tegou's version".
So, the Tegou Er lu (refined) version is just an abbreviation of LZH Da Luohan.
and The Tegou Xiao Luohan is close to the ER Lu in the Shaolin Encylopedia except for the ending section.
since that is the case it is also mostly like the LZH Da Luohan, except for that string of moves from page 205 to 208.
It also follows the Shi degen Yilu (I checked with his book) except for the ending too, but then the Shi degen Yilu keeps going and has more material before it ends.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have an older Chinese book from 1984, no ISBN numbers (drats) yet.
it is called Shaolin Wu Shu. It is very much like LZH's book, it has the Luohan 18 Hands set first, then Xin Yi Quan, then Mei Hua Quan, then Luohan Quan YI LU, then Mei Hua Sword, then three weapons sets.

In the preface to the Luohan Yi Lu (page 109) it says that it is from Liu Zhenhai, and that there are 18 Roads to the Luohan. each having 3 sections, totaling 54 sections.
The quanpu listing of postures shows 69 postures, same as LZH's book.

LZH's book shows the identical routine, same drawings, same text.

My notes in the margins say "Same almost as Tegou's Da Luohan Quan, except ending is a lot longer here."
Also "postures 1 to 36 = Lao Luohan Quan set, same as LZH vcds Luohan 1 and 2. VCD 2 starts on page 320".

Then there is a little chart I made showing one to one posture correspondance table between Tegou version and LZH version, on LZH book page 302 "missing moves 9 to 12 page 525-516 in Tegou book". and "starting page 321 posture 17-71 the rest of the set is different from Tegou and longer".

[LFJ]

of course, this has a good potential to be the case. however, besides the reasons i mentioned, if we are going to accept those Xiao&Da forms are 'extractions' from some long forms, then one may debate that which forms are those 'original' versions?

Because he seems to have had the full system, I would say Liu Zhenhai.

Hmm, well, we have a snapshot of what Shaolin was teaching during Baiyufeng's time via the quanpu I translated....

...No xiao and da luohan quan is named. So, they arose after the massacre of over 200 martial monks, after 1641.

Right. For most styles you don't see Xiao and Da in the oldest manuals. The names were added in modern times when the extracts were taken and became popular. So everyone calls them by different names and modifies them a little differently over the years. Xiao for some is Da for others, because originally they were not extracts as they are now but just part of the fuller 18 road 'Luohanquan' system.

yeah, there it says 18 Luohans. nonetheless, i'm reading that Wu Bin's book and some other articles, they all say that before the 27 posture Luohan was created there was nothing but Luohan 18 techniques and the monk's neigong sets. then they say 'later on'--without clearly saying when-- 54 and 108 posture sets were created, the 108 posture one is nowadays rare to see, while the 54 posture is widely seen, and it seems very different from the 27 posture one, yet they have both Luohan-like postures.

Sounds like the common legend retold once again.

the most interesting thing for me is that nowhere in most these resources there comes any mention of 18lu's or any 18lu system!!

I wouldn't expect anyone not directly descended from those who taught the 18 road system to have any knowledge of it. What they would know would only be the common extracts which became named arbitrarily Xiao and Da in modern times. In Yongwen's book it says according to Shi Degen, Luohanquan (the 18 road system) is of 'secret indoor transmission' and in each generation it has only been passed to two or three people.

What we're looking at seems to be the same case as with the Zhaoyangquan system. The first set, Guanchaoquan, was taught to the public in Dengfeng and became popular as 'Zhaoyangquan', but it's actually a longer 3 road system.

[LFJ]

not the 'full system,' but the 'most complete' portion. to have the full system one must put Liu Zhenhai's, Tagou's, and Yongwen's (if not included in Tagou's) together. no big deal, anyway, it's OK!

Those appear to be extensions of the extracted portions from the system Liu Zhenhai presents. As far as it would appear, Liu Zhenhai is the only one to have presented a complete Luohanquan system while others may speak of it.

we also have a 54 posture form, but it's yet to be confirmed to be in accordance with the 54 posture Da Luohan poems in Yongwen's book (Sal said they match! just we have to ask for the details), and i'm still in doubt, though less likely, it still may be the Refined Luohan quan, this needs further checks.

Since it's a poem and not posture names, it's more difficult to follow. Reading through it I can't really match it to anything. Not sure what it is.

But the very short 10 line poem in his book for Zuiluohanquan is the same poem in the encyclopedia for the common Xiaoluohanquan which has drunken steps in it. However, earlier in the book he describes the different Luohan sets, saying Zuiluohan is the most difficult to practice due to its tumbling actions.

The thing is, I'm not so sure there are such different Luohan sets. He just talks about them but doesn't show anything concrete, and you have to take his word with a grain of salt.

[Sal Canzonieri]

decades ago! all these notes need update and correction. since i'm the junior one here, i'll recheck the resources (except Tagou's books, i don't have them) and do this these days. nonetheless, my work will not be as good as yours.

thanks, I really appreciate it!

[Sal Canzonieri]

I think that sets with their own names now were once names for roads of the 18 roads.

[pazman]

** 2 things in these Liu's instructionals that seem much annoying to me:
first it is the shen fa (body movement/mechanics), and second the Quan pu (movement names). first, if you compare his 1st VCD with Deyang's Xiao Luohan, you know how bad is his shen fa, so that the Luohan postures of the form do not look like Luohan at all! second, if you compare his names list with the above-linked names for the 27 postures and the 36 movements of the form, you see throughout Liu's names, that some times he has counted two obviously different postures, like pics 17-3 and 17-4 of the book, as one, while he has sometimes assigned different numbers to consecutive transition movements! when one counts individual postures, there are 27, and when one counts all the movements, there are 36. but the numbers and the names in these Liu's resources have seemingly been assigned randomly.

I only know a few "luohan" taolu, and they all seem very different from each other, so I'll not speak specifically on the forms you guys are trying to talk about, but in general, performances and information on vcds are rather poor. In some cases this is done intentionally so people don't learn from vcds and then teach them to their gongfu classes, other cases are just very poor productions. For people who are interested in piecing together the history of taolu, like you guys, I imagine it must be very frustrating.

[pazman]

ah right, but not frustrating at all! we have several resources for every form, and when you put all of them together, what you learn can even be much better and closer to the origins than what those VCD makers know. we just have to say them 'thank you!'
of course, Shaolin has a vast history and culture; we don't at all expect to know everything about it; we are like ants walking on a tremendous edifice! and how we can know on what we are walking?! just we are trying to do our bests in order to understand what we are practicing.

Yeah, they are nice resources if you have no access to teachers. But there's also the problem that nothing is really 'standard' in gongfu. For example, I've learned three pretty dramatically versions of Xiaohongquan. All the moves are there, but the shenfa and the details of application are quite different...yet everyone agrees they are all still XHQ.

There are also issues of what comprises a complete system. Often, the material shared by the most lineages is really the complete system, whereas whoever has the most material does not imply they have the most complete system. For example, in tanglangquan, there are only 3 taolu that comprise the original system, yet you see some schools who have 20, 50, even 80 taolu in their syllabus. I wouldn't consider those schools "more complete" than the school that only practices the 3.

[RenDaHai]

Shemmati, I can save you a lot of time.

We covered a lot of this earlier in the thread.

I have actually learned many of these forms first hand.

Yi Lu Luohan, I have actually learned 4 versions of this form in Dengfeng. AND I have seen countless other ones performed. Deyangs, YanZhuangs (like LZH book), Tagous, CuiXiQis. And I saw Yong Wens first hand in kaiFeng.

In Tagou and in YongWens books this form has an extra section on the end. This extra section is simply a few techniques from Er Lu Luohan. Often when masters perform forms they 'Dai Mao Zi' Put a hat on top, it means to top off the form by adding a bit on the end to make it special. Usually you add a bit of the second form.

That is all this section is, though it has gone through a secondary sect, I think the Zhu Tian Xi lineage is different from the LZH Vcds.

LZH 1 + 2 covers the important techniques in all versions of Xiao Luohan. Of course there are differences for different sects. Most versions stop at yi lu and do not continue into Er Lu.

In terms of Da Luohan, that is largely represented by LZH 3 and 4. In most traditional Schools they practice 1 Xiao Luohan (LZH 1) and 1 Da Luohan (LZH 3+4) with some differences).

Then there is the additional Luohan, LZH 2,5,6...... In ZhuTianXis material there are bits from these forms but then lots lots more on top. Most schools don't have any of it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

complete? no, it's not for sure. as Sal said, there's a section that Liu doesn't perform at all, it's in Tagou books. second, we still don't know to which system these Liu's VCDs belong. one opinion is that they are extended versions of the 27 and 54 posture common Luohan quans. everything was OK if this was the case! but there's still a doubt that they might be from Degen's 18 road Luohan system, since on the other side we have Zhu Tianxi's forms, that are more likely to be Degen's sytem, but still we are not sure! as the 3rd possibility they can be from an old 18 road/section Luohan system, like that of Bai Yufeng and Jue Yuan. even the Encyclopedia mentions an 18 road 324 posture Luohan system, we still don't know what that Luohan system is, something different or one of the above systems!
so far we don't know at all to which of these systems these Liu's VCDs do belong.

Zhu in his books and articles says he only learned Shi Degen's system of Taizu and Shaolin Quans, I don't think he learned any other ones from anyone else.

[LFJ]

anyway, if Zhu's forms are Degen's system (that's we have assumed so far to be the case), then Liu's VCDs are not from Degen at all. this is what we currently believe.

That doesn't necessarily follow. Shi Degen knew soooo much. Different people most certainly got different pieces of his knowledge. Besides, we have several different sources saying the same material as Liu Zhenhai presents is from Shi Degen's 18 road Luohanquan. Shi Degen was a Xiyuan monk but was known to have also learned quite a bit of the Nanyuan. So it's possible he had different Luohan systems.

complete? no, it's not for sure. as Sal said, there's a section that Liu doesn't perform at all, it's in Tagou books.

Yes, complete, in the sense that he is the only person to have presented multiple sets to constitute a full system of Luohanquan. With or without all the details in one publishing is not the point. Others so far have only spoken of such a system, but have actually shown very little to substantiate it.

on the other side we have Zhu Tianxi's forms, that are more likely to be Degen's sytem, but still we are not sure!

Why would that be more likely?

Liu Zhenhai was a big collector, but a majority of his material was taught to him by Shi Degen.