Luohan Quan

[RenDaHai]

So you guys have 26 pages breaking down all the different Shaolin Luohan sets in detail, but not one of you can help identify which ones the Chang family sets came from?

I can't imagine that their Xiao and Da Luohan sets are all that different from the Shaolin versions as to be unidentifiable. Their third Luohan set (Qing Long Chu Hai Quan) is virtually identical to the versions still practiced around Shaolin.

In Shaolin Qing Long Chu hai Quan is pretty much extinct. Some villages around ZhengZhou still practice it. It was a form of Mogou village but died with some of the last masters 10 years ago or so. But you are right, it is similar amongst the sects in this area.

Luohan is paired with Jingang quan.

I have seen the Changjia Luohan sets. They are good stuff. When you can see through the stylistic differences in Shenfa, most of the techniques are classically Shaolin, however the Luohan sets are not specifically Luohan as it appears now in shaolin.

There are a few hundred years between them and both styles will have moved their seperate ways.

Luohan has the most sets. This is because pretty much any fist developed or even practiced in Shaolin can be called Luohan quan.

This whole thread is arguing specifically about the luohan sets practiced within Song Mountain. Once you go even to Zhengzhou or Luoyang the number of sets increases exponentially and there is no way we can identify them.

SO I do not think it will be easy to reconcile the changjia luohan sets with those at SongShan now, plus bear in mind the later Luohan sets up to the 18th road none of us have seen.

So basically Changjia Luohan could be another style completely with the same name, it could be from a luohan set that is now extinct or modified beyond recognition, or changed name (this happens a lot too), or it could be that they are similar to a Shaolin Luohan set that none of us have seen. They are not obviously related to any specific Luohan set we have seen, and bear in mind in all the pages we have identified that there only 2 major luohan quan in sets Song mountain with many extra roads that are not practiced often.

[SHemmati]

it was previously mentioned that the common Dengfeng big luohan quan has dropped the majority of the key luohan postures of the original jin tong small luohan and have changed it toward rou quan everywhere possible. the list below is based on encyclopedias move names, the form analysed is Zhang Shijie's big luohan (YouTube). as you see in the below chart, more than half of all the movements of Shaolin small Rou quan (YouTube) (which are also seen in other Shaolin Rou quan forms) have been exported to this big Luohan quan intact:


modified postures are in black color, others gray:

big Luohan quan posture: the change

5. crouch, push palms down
6. stand, hold palms in front of chest: in Encyclopedia/Dengfeng it's the same, but in Degen's it's been changed to small Rou quan posture 2. Luohan Drapes on Coat + small Rou quan posture 19. Elbow Strike with a Horse Stance. (the overall combination in Degen's form is very much like small Rou quan posture 5. Wind Shakes Lotus Leaves)
7. bow, thrust fist
10. rest, thrust fist
11. on horse, cloud palm and thrust fist
12. kick: and transitional palm strikes
additional postures: squat, 42. bow, push elbow + 43. back-hand fist + 47~48. series of punches (notice: postures 42~43+47~48 are a key sequence from the 3rd road of big Luohan quan. i'll discuss this later.), elbow strikes back, Luohan quan posture 10/small Rou quan posture 8. Cross-Legged Resting Stance and Punch Fist
13. squat, fist down
14. back kick
15. sit, luohan sleeps/contemplates
16. on horse, sideward fist
additional posture: small Rou quan posture 16. White Snake Sticks out Tongue, (but here with fist instead of snake tongue hands)
17. on horse, pounding fist: it's done like small Rou quan posture 20. One Hand Inserts Joss Stick + small Rou quan posture 21. Push Palm with a Tiptoe Stance + small Rou quan posture 22. Luohan Carries Basket on the Arm
18. on horse, hands on knees, move sideways
transitional palm strikes (which are repeated several times throughout the form): small Rou quan posture 14. Roll Hands, Push Palms
*29. side transitory (T stance), push palm to side
*30. leg sweeps
*31~32. rest, palm covers face and on horse, throw sand: in Dengfeng these are dropped out, but in Degen's are done with a simplified shenfa
*29. side transitory (T stance), push palm to side
additional postures:
bow step, thrust fist
turn back, pound r fist down
l punch down lift l leg while running
squat, r punch down while running
r punch up while running
l punch down while running
r slap kick and turn back
20. lift leg, push palm
l bow step, l punch down, r punch down
l jab down lift l leg
l leg kick down: it's small Rou quan posture 17. a Silk Winded Leg
21. hook fist up
22 bow, push elbows
24. thrust fist
25. bow, lean body
26. lift leg, hook fist up
27. fist down: the beginning and lifting the striking fist is done like small Rou quan posture 7. Luohan Bears the Flag
28. back kick
jump slap kick of before 29
hero on mountain

so, now we know the commonality between these versions of big Luohan and small Rou quan. just, we don't know when this fusion between big Luohan and small Rou quan has occurred. the 13 main postures of small Rou quan are called luohan 13 postures, which can be a reference to this commonality with Luohan quan. we don't know it yet, maybe really big Luohan quan have been created like that from the beginning.
_______________________

* as you see, in this version there are some key movements from the additional 3rd part of big luohan quan, i.e., from the section later added to jin tong small luohan to create big luohan quan. this is an important sign that they've had this additional part as well in making up this Dengfeng version.
(it became a long post! sorry. to be complete, i had to list all the postures and details. however, you can just read the emphasized parts, this way, it's a short post to read.)

[SHemmati]

as far as related to core Shaolin quan Luohan sets, we are done (if you agree with the previous posts). just because of the number of the posts in this thread, things may seem hard to organize to understand. a renewal of the video-clips list is needed so. first i like to make the correction to the now-oldie previous Sal's video list (we now recognize all the Shaolin videos in it and can certainly and easily say what is which), and then post an all-new list as an end to this phase.

[wenshu]

as far as related to core Shaolin quan Luohan sets, we are done (if you agree with the previous posts). just because of the number of the posts in this thread, things may seem hard to organize to understand. a renewal of the video-clips list is needed so. first i like to make the correction to the now-oldie previous Sal's video list (we now recognize all the Shaolin videos in it and can certainly and easily say what is which), and then post an all-new list as an end to this phase.

very congratulations

You have successfully traced luohanquan all the way back to 1978.

[SHemmati]

Here's as many as I could find of Luohan style videos, if you find more to add, let me know and I will update.
By the way, Shaolin Quan was originally called Shaolin Chui, as was Luohan Quan originally called Luohan Chui, before the Qing Dynasty era.

Luohan Quan Yi Lu taught by Shi Degen - also called Xiao Luohan Quan in Dengfeng / Tagou school (as taught by Liu Zhen Hai):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3q4vhzr58 First 60 of the 85 postures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO3k55h_HLA (same form, black background)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ppmJVwuOM0 (also shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sKH-zLYjEg (also shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xrEtJjUTI (also shortened)

these are Shaolin Da Luohan quan, roads 1-2 of 3, the variation with Rou quan body mechanics (analyzed in the recent posts of this thread);

Da Luohan Quan (as taught by Liu Zhen Hai), first 30 postures of 85 in correct order:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRPOiHl18mA

Lao Jia (old frame) Luohan Quan (also called 3 Section Luohan) - Shi Deyang's version (this set often called Xiao Luohan today because it is like a summary of Da Luohan):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDRkqO4Y7U4

both these forms are the same. Shaolin 27 posture Xiao Luohan. these are the original (Song dynasty) Shaolin Xiao Luohan and are not summary of any form. by the way, it is the bigger form that is not Shaolin Da Luohan, but is a version of this Xiao Luohan joined to another form, of a different nature for another Luohan character, to it. so this is two Luohan forms joined together, assumedly from the Ming dynasty Luohan quan, the later developed Luohan with 18 Luohan characters;

Shaolin Er Lu Luohan Quan (also known as Refined Luohan Quan) - a modern times set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZzRcb5SXTY (shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0IDQpkzPVc (just first third of set)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnUJhm8O7Q (too fast and much abbreviated)

these are Shaolin Da Luohan quan. the pure version, without Shaolin Rou quan materials mixed in. this Da Luohan quan is the same as Jin Tong Luohan quan, which is an ancient form (from early Song dynasty or before), extended by a section at the end to from a matching Xiao&Da couple with Shaolin Xiao Luohan quan. we don't know when this last section has been added in this Da Luohan (since many people call this form competition Luohan quan, this may be a 1980s addition!), but this last section techniques are old enough, all the other variations of Da Luohan quan as well as other styles like Fan Zi quan use this added (3rd) section techniques, i showed this in recent posts. the 1st video is the complete form, all the 3 roads (Jin Tong Luohan with 36 postures is considered 2 roads, the added section the 3rd road); the 2nd and 3rd videos are incomplete performances of Jin Tong Luohan, each jumping a dozen of postures;

Shaolin Luohan Quan 27 Postures:
(no videos yet)

27 postures Luohan quan is the same as Xiao Luohan quan. we have many videos for it;

Shaolin San Lu Luohan Quan:
(no videos yet)

originally, Luohan quan of the Song dynasty seems to have 2 forms, both known as Lao Jia (old) Luohan: Cha Shou (known as Xiao Luohan) and Jin Tong (with the last section added known as Da Luohan). this 3 lu is from the system with 18 Luohans character, which is a later (Ming dynasty) development;

Related sets:

Shaolin Luohan Duan Da:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0vheDniwQE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQDYU98FTTs

Luohan Duan Da, this is directly based on Shaolin Da Luohan quan, the variation with Rou quan body mechanics (analyzed in the recent posts);

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Zhang - 18 PALMS not hands (very rare to see):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rum8qAFB8Wc

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou Yi Lu (set 1 of 8 sets):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA (Shi deyang's totally mixed up short version, missing moves and moves out of order)

Shaolin Damo (also known as Luohan) Shi Ba Shou:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76m4-enGS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q-Z4tiFkus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu4YPOG8uvg

the 1st (Deyang's) link is Luohan 18 Shou road 1, and the others road 8. they're the same as the Encyclopedia forms, the same movements, the same order, just minor differences, as usual (this was also discussed recently).

Shaolin Luohan Pu Shen Chui:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYQKuio8mVs

Shaolin Xinyi Luohan Chui:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbS0aXhvVGA

Unknown Luohan Quan sets:
...
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCWfj9zVU4Y
...
...
...

Da Luohan Quan from Chan family Nei Jia Quan style (derived from original Shaolin Luohan Quan in Henan from the 1600s):
...

Southern Shaolin - Choy Li Fut Luohan Pu Hu Quan (Fuk Fu Kune), the closest you can get to seeing what Luohan Quan might have originally looked like since Choy Gar is directly from Northern Shaolin, it is only two-three generations away from founder Monk Jue Yuan. Jue Yuan taught Yi Quan, who taught the founder of Choy (Chu) Gar.

that v=HCWfj9zVU4Y link is Shaolin Da Luohan quan, roads 1-2, variation with Rou quan body mechanics. other sets, though may have some Luohan elements, are not related to Shaolin.

if we put Xiao Luohan videos together, and Da Luohan videos together, things become simple and solved!

[LFJ]

Well, SHemmati, I'm glad you got things figured out for yourself and you can rest easy. Not everyone agrees with you though, but I'm bored with this thread and don't care anymore.

[SHemmati]

well LFJ, is there anything so wrong? i think the major topics have been laid on postural discussions.
i'm sorry, i may have made them badly, but can you please point out the major flaws you see for us? (yeah, well, you forget me, but this thread is read by many others, your explanations may be needed for them. thanks.)

[LFJ]

My doubts and opinions have been laid out in this 27 page thread. There's no need to repeat it for another 4 or 5. That's why I say I'm bored with this thread, but readers can follow from the beginning. I just want to point out that we aren't and can't be 100% sure on everything. So take this entire thread with a huge grain of salt.

[LFJ]

In the Nanyuan there is both Tongbeiquan and Tongbiquan. They are often called Da and Xiao, but they are in fact separate subsystems.

We say Renshou Tongbiquan to differentiate it from other Shaolin Tongbi, and Nanyuan Tongbeiquan to differentiate it from the more well-known Xiyuan Tongbeiquan. It's the subsystem of Nanyuan Tongbeiquan that has Xiaosihui (aka LHSBS) as the kanjia set.

[RenDaHai]

Indeed,

I think the 'XiaoSiHui' references Luohan 18 shou in its GeJue (Poem). I think this may be why it is, by some people, referred to as a Luohan 18 shou (Unless this is a modern poem, which I confess I have no idea in this case). Never the less though it references the 18 shou it does not state that it is THE 18 shou. Secondly if we see the XiYuan XiaoTongBei YiLu and ErLu (known commonly as DaLiuHe 1 and 2) you can see clearly the connection to the NanYuan TongBei, the techniques and combinations are largley the same.

Discounting the XiaoSiHui as Luohan we then see it as a beginning form for one of the other systems.

The vast majority of early Shaolin form fits into one of 3 categories; XiaoHongQuan, TongBeiQuan and PaoQuan. Characteristically the current HongQuan is a palm system and is 'DuanDa' (though it may have longfist origins). TongBeiQuan is ChangQuan. PaoQuan is TieShenKao. A slightly simplified way of looking at things since all the forms contain techniques from all ranges, never the less they are predominantly one or the other.

Many forms, though they have their own names, are sub-forms from one of the above systems. LFJ through his own research considers XiaoSiHui as part of the TongBei system and peculiar to the NanYuan sect. This makes sense to me.



In terms of Luohan 18 shou, I am at this point convinced (through various sources) it is the form that follows the poem posted pages back. 'Xuanyuan KuaHu zhao chi you, xianren zhi lu mo fa chou, hui tou wang yue long bai wei, tong zi nai fo ba lu xiu'. I realise I may be perceived as biased because I also practice this version, but bear in mind I have learned or have had the opportunity to learn any of the 18 shou in question, even the unusual HuShanZiMen form.

[SHemmati]

in addition to the above concern, which is more of a historical concern, i have a technical concern as well. look, Luohan 18 shou has Sui dynasty stems. in that era there's not mention of any well-compiled martial art except Shuai Jiao. so, the martial ideas of those times have more considered palm actions and firm high, mid, and low stances, like Shuai Jiao. add to this the monks' attitude of using open palms all day long. the 1st road of those 8 has all these attitudes. the more advanced notions, like kicking, which is more advanced than Shuai Jiao originated methods, is introduced in the 2nd road, which is a few centuries newer than the 1st road, according to the Shaolin stories. up to the 8th road, this Sui dynasty simplicity is present. things seemingly conform with the stories, no paradox, neither historical, nor technical.

on the other side, the other candidate, the Xiyuan form. it has 18 methods, good so far, but besides being just 18, without any other road or addition, its techniques don't conform with primitive attitudes: a few monkey postures, more modern hand gestures, more modern stancework, some more advanced kicking notions.
though the form can be very old, such things make it hard for it to be an ancestral relic, but more like a more advanced system from post Ming or Song dynasty eras. plus, the book says it was passed down by Li Gensheng, a folk master from Dengfeng. Dengfeng folk masters have taught many diverse stuff they've learned from various sources.

[LFJ]

anyway, from another point of view, that XiaoSiHui/LSBS is not alone. it stands there with at least 7 other roads, which are technically of the same species.

There's a ton of misinformation in the Encyclopedia.

I don't see that Xiaosihui is the same "technical species" as the other roads, unless you take the eighth as the same set, just perhaps a Xiyuan variation of it. It's basically Nanyuan Tongbeiquan material, which the others stray far from.

The others, as I've said, resemble more the 13 road Kanjiaquan, which in turn resembles something more like Renshou Tongbiquan, which is again a separate system from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. There are some unique actions in those sets only found elsewhere in the 13 road Kanjiaquan series.

In any case, this whole series shown in the Encyclopedia seems unrelated to Luohan except for in name and number (but Luohan and 18 are obviously significant in Shaolin culture), while there is clear connection to Tongbei/Tongbi. Maybe those other sets are even the other Shaolin Tongbiquan which no one seems to have found yet, and they are the system related to the 13 road Kanjiaquan series...

[RenDaHai]

4 forms in this video!

We have Xiao luohan and Da luohan yi lo in the background and in the foreground I see (I think) San Lu, XinYi Luohan Quan first and then I don't know, maybe the 2nd or the 4th road, or perhaps an even later road. From Shi Degens lineage if I'm not mistaken.

I'm gonna guess ZhuTianXi's students or perhaps ZhangShiJie (in fact, IS that ZhangShiJie performing first??)

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODE5NjI2OTY4.html

[SHemmati]

...Da luohan yi lo...

yeah, they mostly call it da luohan yi lu. then, do you have any videos or anything of the so-called second lu of da luohan?

San Lu, XinYi Luohan Quan

yeah, xin yi ba, changed a bit, added in a few da luohan movements, and called luohan quan. by the way, they call it 'barefoot luohan,' the beggar luohan, with a bowl in hand, who has to keep one (bare) foot above the harsh ground.

...and then I don't know, maybe the 2nd or the 4th road, or perhaps an even later road.

yeah, another form with a few luohan quan postures. do you see that the main stream-line of this form is the techniques from Zhu Tianxi's controversial Rou quan?
seems Shi Degen had changed most of his main forms, by adding some luohan quan movements, etc, and taught them under the title of luohan quan to Zhu Tianxi! this is obviously not luohan quan!

From Shi Degens lineage if I'm not mistaken.

right, you're not mistaken. the 1st form of this weird system is what Shi Degen showed in his Luohan quan book. however, as we know, this is not the only luohan quan Shi Degen left behind. he taught Liu Zhenhai a different luohan quan, and also there's Shi Yongwen's Luohan quan, another different system, which is supposedly also from Shi Degen! so we have to call this one Shi Degen-Zhu Tianxi's 18 Luohan quan* to make it distinguishable from the other luohan quans he has taught.

I'm gonna guess ZhuTianXi's students or perhaps ZhangShiJie (in fact, IS that ZhangShiJie performing first??)

yeah, this is him.
_____________

let's now see yet another 18 luohan quan, the 4th 18 luohan quan so far!!!

following your video, these videos show some bits of Shi Yongwen's 18 luohan quan*:
http://www.56.com/u42/v_MTcwNTYwMTU.html
http://www.56.com/u14/v_MTc2OTUzMDc.html

1st form: chang mei (long-eyebrow) luohan
2nd form: fu hu (tame tiger) luohan
3rd form: di (ground) luohan?
4th form: does she say wu?? luohan? or luo?? luohan?
also: zui (drunken) luohan
and also says xin yi (mind) luohan
as is the case with all these 18 luohan quans, these first 4 forms all have some or many parts of big and small luohan. the 2nd form is small luohan itself.
____________
* 18 luohan quan is a term referring to systems with 18 luohan characters, not to necessarily have 18 forms. it was in the Ming dynasty that the number of the luohans in Chinese Buddhism was increased to 18. so, the 18 luohan quans should be Ming or post-Ming dynasty styles. original Shaolin luohan quan was much older, at least from pre-Song dynasty times as the records say.

[SHemmati]

the only thing i see that is in common between Shi Yongwen's and this Shaolin.org.cn (official Shaolin temple website) 18 luohan quans is thier 2nd forms, fu hu luohan, which in both is xiao luohan quan. even their chang mei and di (ground) luohan quans, though have the same names, are quite different.

this is the first 10 roads of the above-mentioned 18-road Luohan quan:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/143730581

the 18 roads of this system are:
1.降龙(jiang/xiang long: descending/subdue dragon), 2.伏虎(fu hu: tame tiger), 3.拂袖(fu xiu: brushing sleeve??), 4.长眉(chang mei: long eyebrow), 5.地行(di xing: groundward), 6.穿云(chuan yun: through the clouds), 7.独臂(du bi: single-armed), 8.瘸腿(que tui: lame leg), 9.铁拐(tie guai: iron cane), 10.文(wen: gentle), 11.武(wu: martial), 12.痴呆(chi dai: imbecile), 13.疯魔(feng mo: mad devil), 14.傻(sha: foolish), 15.荼(tu: bitter), 16.醉(zui: drunken), 17.颠(dian: tumbling), 18.狂(kuang: raging).

it's a bit weirder, even. because Shi Yongwen in his book teaches a longer version of xiao luohan quan as his 1st luohan quan, and gives the quan pu of a longer version of da luohan quan as his 2nd form. like the way Liu Zhenhai does, but their 2nd halves of the 1st form are different, their 2nd forms but, as i checked, look much the same, at least in their quan pus. anyway, now Yongwen, as seems in the above video clips, teaches something similar to xiao luohan quan as his 2nd form, like the way Shaolin.org does.
the only obvious thing here is that "there's more than one 18 luohan quan styles in Shaolin area."