Luohan Quan

[LFJ]

All research shows that the 18 Luohan Hands existed before Luohan Quan developed, which is to say that it was the material that Jue Yuan worked from during his "experiments" with Bai Yufeng and Li Sou.
So, I would think that, though "free form", 18 Luohan was still one of the base materials that Xiao Meihua Quan was developed from.

yes, the record says that jueda was practicing luohan shibashou when fuju inspired him with the plum blossom.

Maybe Liu Zhehai just made a mistake? Or, he felt that there was so much Luohan Quan in the Da Meihua Quan set that it might as well be considered a Luohan Quan set in the long run?
Wow, what a question to be able to ask Liu Zhenhai somehow.

i dont know, but sometimes i've seen performance videos have the wrong name on the wrong set. it was likely the editors fault. but in this case, there was no meihuaquan performance at all on the vcd anyway.

also.. the video i posted for xiaomeihuaquan seems different from the encyclopedia. they are sometimes hard to follow though, unless you already know or have seen the sets. but it looks like there are some ditang techniques in the encyclopedia.

[Sal Canzonieri]

yes, the record says that jueda was practicing luohan shibashou when fuju inspired him with the plum blossom.



i dont know, but sometimes i've seen performance videos have the wrong name on the wrong set. it was likely the editors fault. but in this case, there was no meihuaquan performance at all on the vcd anyway.

also.. the video i posted for xiaomeihuaquan seems different from the encyclopedia. they are sometimes hard to follow though, unless you already know or have seen the sets. but it looks like there are some ditang techniques in the encyclopedia.

plus, some effort was made to make the 7th Lu Luohan Quan set "different" than the Meihua set, by shortening the ending. So, what does that mean?

[RenDaHai]

The video you poseted for xiao mei hua is utterly unlike any xiao mei hua I have seen. Usually you get a lot of pu bu kicks, and scorpion whips tail etc.

I have seen 3 very distinct versions of the ditang xiao mei hua, all much more interesting than this.

On to LiuZhenHais luohan 7 lo.

Liu zhen hais version is very short, only the first half of meihua quan. I would say that if Da Meihua is a modern set what is most likely is that it was originally a Luohan set which got a few moves added to the end of it by someone (it is more common to modify an existing form than to create a new one from scratch). The first half is essentially all luohan quan moves anyway.

[LFJ]

The video you poseted for xiao mei hua is utterly unlike any xiao mei hua I have seen. Usually you get a lot of pu bu kicks, and scorpion whips tail etc.

I have seen 3 very distinct versions of the ditang xiao mei hua, all much more interesting than this.

i guess you are talking about this set by shi guosong, actually called "ditang" meihuaquan, but sometimes xiaomeihuaquan or just meihuaquan:

http://v.ku6.com/show/ugIChm169IqM0CZG.html

the video i posted of xiaomeihuaquan matches the encyclopedia rather closely, except it appears to have the ground technique done by shi guosong at :30 into the clip there, which the guy in yellow doesnt do.

also, they share a lot of the same sequences if you watch closely enough, from the beginning to midway through almost. so they appear related. but the xiaomeihuaquan is not a ditang set.

it has big sections of datongbiquan, one right at the beginning, then follows a ditang meihuaquan sequence, and has part of the opening sequence to the laojia hongquan set at the end.

[LFJ]

I would say that if Da Meihua is a modern set what is most likely is that it was originally a Luohan set which got a few moves added to the end of it by someone (it is more common to modify an existing form than to create a new one from scratch). The first half is essentially all luohan quan moves anyway.

well, there is also a poem in the encyclopedia that goes along with the history. the poem also tells how abbot henglin used the 29 posture xiaomeihuaquan to create the 54 posture dameihuaquan.

[LFJ]

The video you poseted for xiao mei hua is utterly unlike any xiao mei hua I have seen.

you apparently have the performance vcd with all the luohanquan sets on it. on that same disc there is shi xingsen demonstrating xiaomeihuaquan. it is almost exactly like the set done by the guy in yellow here, the only difference is stepping forward or backward in some places:
http://www.56.com/u71/v_MTQ3MTkwMjg.html

both of them replace the ditang movement that is in the xiaomeihuaquan set shown in the encyclopedia with the same move (hop into chabu with cranes beak or strike, then unwind into gongbu chongquan).

however, i have seen a chinese magazine article that had this xiaomeihuaquan step by step with photos and combat applications that included the ditang technique and its application. its the same weird move shi guosong does in the ditang meihuaquan just after "throwing sand" in mabu where you lie on the ground and stomp over your own leg.

by the way,

shi xingsen is young (late thirties) and still teaches in his own school. he knows a lot of rare sets from shi degen's lineage and narrated those performance vcds, and also did many of the instructionals. if not liu zhenhai himself, xingsen would be a good guy to talk to about the sets. particularly to clear up the dameihuaquan being named luohanquan 7lu in that clip.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Looking through my Shaolin manuals, I have a set called Xiao Jia Shi Ba Luohan Quan - Small Frame 18 Luohan Fist.

It's pretty cool, for some reason it shares a lot of the postures from the Luohan 7th Lu / Da Meihua Quan you are talking about, but in a completely different order of sequence, like if it was totally rearranged. Most of the set though is like a Shi Dejian kind of set.
There are 18-19 postures total (with more movements within).

[mawali]

But, Here he is doing a modern wushu long fist set, not traditional at all: 少林三路长拳
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE5OTE3NTgw.html

Hmm, would be weird if he is doing wushu versions of the sets and they look more "traditional" than some people's traditional????

The version above is similar (for the most part) to wushuchangquan #3 that I learnt about 25 years. Since then, it seems that many forms have become so wushuized that they all seem muddied together for performance purposes.
I realize it is not all like that but even with 'traditional' forms, they are played in a wushu manner that somehow diminishes their value.

Thanks for the great insight you bring along with LFJ's keen sight!

[r.(shaolin)]

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri
But, Here he is doing a modern wushu long fist set, not traditional at all: 少林三路长拳
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE5OTE3NTgw.html

Hmm, would be weird if he is doing wushu versions of the sets and they look more "traditional" than some people's traditional????

First of all this form has been been around long before the 1950's when the Chinese State Commission for Physical Culture and Sports developed they're standardized sets for modern wushu. My teacher learned this set in the 1920's and his teacher learned it some time in the 1870's. Albeit the set as shown is shorter with a number of combinations and mirrored movements taken out it is basically in tact. In our lineage of Shaolin this set is called Da Hong Chang Quan (Chin.: 大洪長拳). It is considered one of the foundational sets of Shaolin by us.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

First of all this form has been been around long before the 1950's when the Chinese State Commission for Physical Culture and Sports developed they're standardized sets for modern wushu. My teacher learned this set in the 1920's and his teacher learned it some time in the 1870's. Albeit the set as shown is shorter with a number of combinations and mirrored movements taken out it is basically in tact. In our lineage of Shaolin this set is called Da Hong Chang Quan (Chin.: 大洪長拳). It is considered one of the foundational sets of Shaolin by us.
r.

Yeah, the Wushu routines were developed from out of real Shaolin sets, abbreviated, and then had some movements from Shandong long fist added in, such as Hua Quan, Cha Quan, and supposedly they used Shaolin Hong Quan sets as a base to start from.

I'd love to see the real version of this famous wushu set. Everyone has learned this set at some point that I know. Me included. It's disjointed and awkward at times, so the complete Shaolin version would obviously solve that. I bet the original version was a great set to practice.

[r.(shaolin)]

?

by 1983 he had just begun to fall ill and lose some mobility but still practiced and taught at that time. he also headed the "group for excavation & systematization of shaolin wushu", and published texts like "the secret transmissions of shaolin boxing". he was known as the "shaolin boxing king". his knowledge of shaolin boxing was encyclopedic and he taught quite a lot to master deyang, who at that time became known as the "young shaolin boxing king" for their vast knowledge of shaolin sets and specialized skills.

its the same "zhaoyangquan" in the shaolin encyclopedia. in the same sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA

I noticed the Shi Deyang opens and closes this set with a crossed palm yinxiang (印相 ). Because we use this yinxiang at the beginning and closing of all our barehand sets, I would be interested in how Shi Deyang explains this ritual gesture.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA

I noticed the Shi Deyang opens and closes this set with a crossed palm yinxiang (印相 ). Because we use this yinxiang at the beginning and closing of all our barehand sets, I would be interested in how Shi Deyang explains this ritual gesture.

r.

I don't know, but I learned this set, all 8 of the sets in fact, and only this first set opens this way, not a salute, but as the first posture with applications.

The whole opening sequence is a Shaolin-ized way of doing Bagua Zhang's Single Palm Change, by the way.

[LFJ]

same as sal. the first move has an application, then flipping the hands over is another applications, and different posture name.

[r.(shaolin)]

same as sal. the first move has an application, then flipping the hands over is another applications, and different posture name.

If you look a the ending you will note that the sets ends with a defense position.
Then this crossed palm is repeated. If someone knows Shi Deyang it would be worth asking.

r.

[LFJ]

because the crossed palm is the last move.

also at the end the right hand in inside. the opening move has the right hand on the outside first. then its flips to the inside and pushes forward. these are different self-defense applications.