Luohan Quan

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, the xiaomeihuaquan in the shaolin encyc. has just one ditang technique in it (not counting sweeps). not so much like the ditang meihuaquan shi guosong demonstrates.

however, if you watch and compare these two, they follow the exact same sequence up to that first ditang move.

compare these two xiaomeihuaquan videos with the ditang meihuaquan video. watch the sequence of the two xiao videos up to the hop into chabu with crane's beak (yellow clothes) or low hammer strike (shi xingsen). this is where the move comes in that shi guosong does, actually lying on the ground and stomping over his own leg. the shaolin encyc. shows this move actually being in the xiaomeihuaquan set too, but the rest is different.

from the beginning to :49 in shi xingsen's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pHHs8-qquk

from the beginning to :20 in the yellow suit video:
http://www.56.com/u71/v_MTQ3MTkwMjg.html

from the beginning to :31 in shi guosong's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPw5BW7z_uY

examine closely. these sequences are the same. only shi guosong goes in a different direction and has a couple extra moves, but follows the same sequence nonetheless.

the xiaomeihuaquan in the encyc. follows this too, but all three go astray after that technique.

Yep, I see it.
All peter out and go astray after a certain point from the encyc and each other.

[LFJ]

i've counted the movements and ditang meihuaquan is also 29 postures, just like the xiaomeihuaquan set is, both on those videos and in the encyc..

they share the same sequence, and the ditang meihuaquan has the ground technique in it that only the encyc. has, not these other two videos.

rendahai (where's he been?) also said he's seen several distinct versions of a xiaomeihuaquan, and described them like the ditang meihuaquan.

i wonder if they are two closely related sets, or if the version in the two videos is actually simplified.

actually..... wait... if you examine even more closely, the whole set is basically the same! even after that ground move, they both turn around to gongbu chongquan. then do a sort of spin-around move into dulibu. and directly afterward do a slapkick (either jumping or standing) into pubu anzhang. followed by another kick. then gongbu shuang tuizhang is in both (but switched places with the kick). and finally they both do a three kick combo: right slapkick, turn back and dust off the left shoe (whatever its called), then do a jump kick (either straight or tornado) (just like the datongbiquan ending), and then finish in the zuoshan pose.

i know it is very obscure, but examine closely and you can see how the entire sets run the same sequence (technically different as they may be).

so again, two closely related sets, like the two zhaoyangquan (朝阳拳 and 昭阳拳) which are basically the same sets but with minor technical differences? or are those two video ones really simplified versions, and shi guosong's ditang meihuaquan is the real xiaomeihuaquan?

[Sal Canzonieri]

i've counted the movements and ditang meihuaquan is also 29 postures, just like the xiaomeihuaquan set is, both on those videos and in the encyc..

they share the same sequence, and the ditang meihuaquan has the ground technique in it that only the encyc. has, not these other two videos.

rendahai (where's he been?) also said he's seen several distinct versions of a xiaomeihuaquan, and described them like the ditang meihuaquan.

i wonder if they are two closely related sets, or if the version in the two videos is actually simplified.

actually..... wait... if you examine even more closely, the whole set is basically the same! even after that ground move, they both turn around to gongbu chongquan. then do a sort of spin-around move into dulibu. and directly afterward do a slapkick (either jumping or standing) into pubu anzhang. followed by another kick. then gongbu shuang tuizhang is in both (but switched places with the kick). and finally they both do a three kick combo: right slapkick, turn back and dust off the left shoe (whatever its called), then do a jump kick (either straight or tornado) (just like the datongbiquan ending), and then finish in the zuoshan pose.

i know it is very obscure, but examine closely and you can see how the entire sets run the same sequence (technically different as they may be).

so again, two closely related sets, like the two zhaoyangquan (朝阳拳 and 昭阳拳) which are basically the same sets but with minor technical differences? or are those two video ones really simplified versions, and shi guosong's ditang meihuaquan is the real xiaomeihuaquan?

No, they have to be the same set, it's just different stylistic emphasis.
I think that they just simplified the Ditang Meihua Quan in those two videos.
Why not, they've been doing it for all the other sets.

[LFJ]

maybe.

the two chao/zhaoyangquan sets were created by the same person, shi zhanju in the qing dynasty.

first he created 朝阳拳 (morning sun/facing the sun boxing) based on shaolin hongquan and tongbiquan. but after thinking over it, he then edited it with an extra opening sequence starting with zuoshan, and overall improved upon his original set. he called the new one 昭阳拳 (bright sun boxing).

the names also refer to the strategy. "morning sun/facing the sun" is soft, warm and soothing. its a straightforward self-defense set. its attacks are obvious. "bright sun" (like at noon) is piercing and overwhelming. its a more aggressive set. its attack strategy is deceptive.

but they are still visually identical sets. if you just watched them you'd think they are stylistic differences depending on who's doing them. but they are actually two different sets.

these are shown in the shaolin encyc.. and here are a couple videos:

朝阳拳
http://www.56.com/u40/v_NDIyNTczNjU.html

昭阳拳
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTA2ODE4MjE2.html

now with the meihuaquan sets, its more obvious now that they run the same entire sequence, but that xiaomeihuaquan is really different to be a simplification of ditang meihuaquan.

as with the two chao/zhaoyang sets, the later edited one is more complex.

but heck, xiaohongquan is a simplification of laojia hongquan. its obvious. but you couldnt just tell that on first glance without an examination.

[LFJ]

The form you showed is called guanchao quan (tide watching form).

which one? i showed two.

chaoyang and zhaoyang are two different sets. they are both listed in the four volume shaolin encyclopedia.

as i posted, this one is the "chaoyang" (朝阳) set as listed in the shaolin encyc., created first by monk zhanju in the qing dynasty:
http://www.56.com/u40/v_NDIyNTczNjU.html

and this is the "zhaoyang" (昭阳) set as listed in the shaolin encyc., created by monk zhanju in the qing dynasty based on his chaoyangquan, with the zuoshan posture and first small sequence added to the beginning, and the rest of the set edited for improvements and changed strategy (as explained in the encyc..):
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTA2ODE4MjE2.html

which one are you saying is guanchaoquan?

Here is a video of how it should look as taught by Degen da shi

http://www.56.com/u87/v_NDI0NjMyNDQ.html

this is the set in the shaolin encyc. listed as "chaoyangquan" (朝阳拳), but it has the zuoshan posture and first sequence added to it, which should be from the first zhaoyangquan set (昭阳拳).

but notice he doesnt do the kick with the double spear hand movement at the beginning, because the chaoyang set just does the spear hands in gongbu. its done with a kick in the zhaoyang set because monk zhanju thought over and changed the strategy to bring the opponents attention high and strike low, etc..

this is used in, among other places later in the set, the movement following zuoshan, the chop in mabu, and the gongbu banshou. the next move is a right cover block with a left palm-thrust over it with a low shovel kick. (high-low strategy) this is explained in the introduction of the set in the shaolin encyc.. (and also why they are named chaoyang or zhaoyang to reflect their strategies)

other than that, its the chaoyang set, but missing the xubu baifo postures between the mabu punches starting at :54 there. in the zhaoyang set it has different postures and techniques between them.

so you're saying the chaoyangquan set is actually guanchaoquan?

i dont know how that can be. i dont have the new two volume shaolin encyclopedia yet, but i see in the table of contents that both the chaoyangquan and guanchaoquan set are listed. if you have it can you take a look and see which they are exactly?

Originally it started with a yinyang shou at the begining. THe zuo shan stance wasn't there. In the 80's when yong wen shi released a book on Zhaoyang quan, he thought the begining wasn't very 'cool' so he added the zuo shan stance, the chop and the opening shoulder move. the rest is as Degen da shi taught.

so you're saying everyone started following the way shi yongwen did it in his book? including shi deqian and shi deyang?

the name and character for both are explained to reflect the different strategies in both sets (chao vs zhao). the different strategies can be seen throughout the two sets. they differ on a lot more than just the opening. although they follow the same sequences, the detail of the individual techniques are different.

and i have seen many different people practice each. whether it was chaoyang or zhaoyang could be seen, if you knew both.

what seems to have happened is that shi yongwen took the opening sequence of zhaoyangquan and added it to chaoyangquan, not that he made it up himself.

if you're saying the "zhaoyangquan" (with the new opening) is actually just chaoyangquan which is in fact guanchaoquan, and the real zhaoyangquan is something completely different, then i dont follow you here.

as for guanchaoquan and the "real" zhaoyangquan, i'd have to see them.

[mawali]

Sal said

SHAANXI is where Shaolin Hong Quan originated, at least the version that reached Shaolin via Li Sou.

but isn't this from where Chen family art originated before they ended up in Chenjaogou and synthesis produced what we know as Chen shi taijiquan.

In some circles it is also said that Yang Luchan practiced a version of Hongquan or he saw a connection between Shaolin and Chen style synthesis so he was able to change the Chen choreography (using Shaolin as a template system) into present day Yang taijiquan!

[LFJ]

THe ZHaoyang/Chaoyang form you are referring to is the same form, Chaoyang is simply missing one or two moves, there shouldn't be a difference.

actually there is quite a large difference throughout the whole sets, if you know them both. everyone i have seen do chaoyangquan do it all the same. and everyone i have seen do zhaoyangquan do it all the same.

The high low tactic is not unique to zhaoyang quan but is repeated in all shaolin forms. Actually the only difference with Deyangs is that instead of doing 'pound a morter' twice and the punch down punch up thing once, he does the punch down/up thing all 3 times, a perfectly acceptable substitution. THe other difference is he changes the lying backwards move for three spear hands and a side kick, and he kicks at the same time as spear hand at the begining, otherwise the form is identical, it only looks a bit different, the series of applications is the same. THey probably just thought the lying back kick was not so useful.

there is a lot more than just that. it takes a close examination if you havent learned both. but everyone who does each set does the exact same differences in place where they should be, throughout the entire sets. and the strategies are obvious. all of chaoyangquan's attacks are straightforward. there are no hidden or cheap shots. whereas the zhaoyangquan set is full of deceptive techniques, blinding the opponent with upper body attacks while using that distraction to attack their lower body. the chaoyangquan set doesnt do that.

thats why chaoyangquan (朝阳拳) means "exposed to the sun", its out in the open. nothing hidden. "打明不打暗" (dǎ míng bù dǎ àn), literally "strike bright, dont strike dark".

while zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) means "bright sun", its piercing to the eyes. blinding the opponent in order to take deceptive shots. distracting high and striking low.

thats why chaoyangquan just does the double spear hand in gongbu, while zhaoyangquan does a kick with it. it was edited to change the strategy.

also, shi deyang does teach the lying backwards kick as a straight kick that turns over in the air. just not so much in the instructional video of his. the kid in this video does it a little more obviously:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WQ8wDT-uzk

when it is done your right foot even leaves the ground a little as you shoot forward and lean back. just not totally horizontal or anything. not a significant differene.

The differences are so minor I expect that Deyang himself changed the form, or whoever showed it to him did. It would have been contributed to the encyclopedia probably by Deyang.

you dont sound as if you've learned them both. they run the same sequences but almost every move is changed, and their differing strategies are obvious. so much to where i'm not convinced that they are the same set. or that everyone read shi yongwen's book and started doing it like him, or even committed his changes to the encyclopedia. it seems he just took the beginning from one set and added it to the other because he liked it.

especially since everyone who does it one way names in chaoyangquan, and if the other way its always named zhaoyangquan. which means they are done and named that way for a reason.

The original Zhaoyang to which the history is referring is a much grander, much greater form, on a par with tongbi and pao quan.

can you check the 2 volume encyclopedia on the sets it shows as guanchaoquan and zhaoyangquan? also translate their history here.

[LFJ]

Currently I am translating a book on Zhaoyang quan by Yong Wen Shi. It contains both Guanchao quan ( or 4 lo zhaoyang quan) and Er lo zhaoyang quan (from the original set of 3).

so you have seen zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) erlu and sanlu, and another which is guanchaoquan (chaoyangquan 朝阳拳).

what about zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) yilu?

i have seen the lyrics to the sets, and yilu is zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) as done by shi deyang.

i think guanchaoquan (chaoyangquan 朝阳拳) which is one set was made first, by monk zhanju in the qing dynasty. then as he thought over the strategy he edited that set into zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) yilu which has the zuoshan and beginning sequence added.

then the subsequent roads are the zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) you're talking about.

[RenDaHai]

Here is another example of an utterly different variation:

http://www.56.com/u25/v_MzM0NDEyNDY.html

Its still the same form....

Deyangs zhaoyang is another variation, It is impossible to acertain the true history when forms change so much,

But what is important is that there are 4 forms, and that the other 3 are more interesting, and form a more complete style.

Take a look at tagous version as well, this s referred to as Chaoyang, it is the shorter variation I am talking about.

[LFJ]

i know how similar they are, but each time i see it practiced one way it is called by that name (either chao or zhao). its always like that, by different people.

i'm waiting to get the 2 volume encyclopedia so i can see what they have listed now, since guanchaoquan and chaoyangquan are both listed. i'm interested to see what they show for them and what history they've written now.

as for the zhaoyangquan, i've only read the lyrics of the other sets. yilu as i said was just like shi deyang does it. i didnt recognize the others. but i at least know they exist, as you say.

[LFJ]

Yeah, it would be interesting to see what the new encyclopedia has.... probably the same as the old one but with chaoyang replaced to be guanchao.

well, no. thats the thing. the table of contents shows guanchaoquan and chaoyangquan, but no zhaoyangquan listed.

that is only pinyin though, no characters shown. so i'm not sure yet.

I have a suspician the name chaoyang quan is a mistake that has lasted a long time, it sounds and looks (characters) very similar to zhaoyang. Zhaoyang is often pronounced exactly like chaoyang.

the characters are like this: 朝 and 昭, only the first one can be pronounced either "cháo" or "zhāo", but for shaolin chaoyangquan (朝阳拳) it is pronounced "cháo".

the second one is the character used for the zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) sets, and is only pronounced "zhāo".

the thing that has me hanging is that the new encyclopedia has both guanchaoquan and chaoyangquan (朝阳拳) listed. if they used an automated pinyin conversion tool then it would have only made "chao" pinyin for 朝, not 昭. and if it were a person i'm sure they'd know the only one possible pronunciation of 昭. zhaoyangquan is not listed at all this time.

so there must be something of interest to see there.

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, no. thats the thing. the table of contents shows guanchaoquan and chaoyangquan, but no zhaoyangquan listed.

that is only pinyin though, no characters shown. so i'm not sure yet.



the characters are like this: 朝 and 昭, only the first one can be pronounced either "cháo" or "zhāo", but for shaolin chaoyangquan (朝阳拳) it is pronounced "cháo".

the second one is the character used for the zhaoyangquan (昭阳拳) sets, and is only pronounced "zhāo".

the thing that has me hanging is that the new encyclopedia has both guanchaoquan and chaoyangquan (朝阳拳) listed. if they used an automated pinyin conversion tool then it would have only made "chao" pinyin for 朝, not 昭. and if it were a person i'm sure they'd know the only one possible pronunciation of 昭. zhaoyangquan is not listed at all this time.

so there must be something of interest to see there.

No, there's a typo on their web page. It says Shao (should be Zhao) Yang Quan, page 383.
In the new version, both the Zhao and Chao (page 964) are shown, it is the exact same forms as in the old one. (look again on that webpage, you will see both are listed. The only redid the Zhao one with photos (page 383).

The Guan Chao (page 107) is only the lyrics for the postures, it's in the in lost forms section (which they call Section - Summarized practice methods for Shaolin boxing... 95
but it is really all their forms that they don't have drawings for or are still researching.
So, nothing to be learned from there, except the names of the postures of Guan Chao.

--------------------

Here's other things I see only in the new version:

There's now three Mei Hua Quan sets.
1 - Mei Hua Quan (photos showing a fuller version of the Ditang Mei Hua set)
2- Xiao Mei Hua Quan (photos showing same set as 4 volume version)
3 - Da Mei Hua Quan (photos showing same set as in 4 volume version).

They have REMOVED the Xin Yi Mizhong Quan set (erlu), it's gone and it is replaced with Qi Xing, 7 Stars set.

As far Luohan Quan, they added the Tagou Er Lu Luohan Quan set.

Also, I see that the Luo Wang 18 Palms set is almost like one of the videos in the Liu Zhenhai's 7 Luohan set series.

[LFJ]

No, there's a typo on their web page. It says Shao (should be Zhao) Yang Quan, page 383.
In the new version, both the Zhao and Chao (page 964) are shown, it is the exact same forms as in the old one. (look again on that webpage, you will see both are listed. The only redid the Zhao one with photos (page 383).

okay, i see.

The Guan Chao (page 107) is only the lyrics for the postures, it's in the in lost forms section (which they call Section - Summarized practice methods for Shaolin boxing... 95
but it is really all their forms that they don't have drawings for or are still researching.
So, nothing to be learned from there, except the names of the postures of Guan Chao.

interesting... can you tell by the lyrics whether it is like chaoyangquan or zhaoyangquan?

[Sal Canzonieri]

okay, i see.



interesting... can you tell by the lyrics whether it is like chaoyangquan or zhaoyangquan?

Yeah, it is 28 postures, like Zhao (Rising sun) on page 181 of 4 volume set.
But not too much like it, it shares some posture names.

You can translate it and post it, the "lost" forms are given in volume 1 of the 4 volume set.
Do you have all 4?

There is also a 2 volume version that has it as well, it came out first, in 1992, before the 4 volume version.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I can tell you a bit about Zhaoyang quan,


Zhaoying quan (rising sun fist) is an excellent shaolin style.

However the zhaoyang quan you are referring to is not zhaoyang quan at all.

Zhaoyang quan is like other shaolin sets, it has 3 forms. It is of very much shaolin style, but also with its own character. It uses standard moves (dan bian, xie xing) but in zhaoyang quan they are all done shorter, smaller. Lots of unique kicks, has a slight luohan quan flavour.

The form you showed is called guanchao quan (tide watching form). Like many shaolin forms 3 lo zhaoyang quan and guanchao quan form a kind of couple, (like xiao and da pao quan, tongbi etc).

Originally zhaoyang quan was known by Degen Da shi. During the 50's he was enscripted to teach in Dengfeng middle school. He taught the form guanchao quan which he modified. It is part of zhaoyang quan family. At the time he called it zhaoyang quan (but it was not the complete zhaoyang quan). So many poeple in dengfeng learned this form. And so now it is practiced in many schools. THere is a short and a longer version. But whichever one you learn it is still only 1 out of 4 forms of zhaoyang quan.

Here is a video of how it should look as taught by Degen da shi

http://www.56.com/u87/v_NDI0NjMyNDQ.html

Originally it started with a yinyang shou at the begining. THe zuo shan stance wasn't there. In the 80's when yong wen shi released a book on Zhaoyang quan, he thought the begining wasn't very 'cool' so he added the zuo shan stance, the chop and the opening shoulder move. the rest is as Degen da shi taught.

It appears that Degen was the only real source of this style, so if it is not practiced like the one above it has probably been changed within the last 30 years.

As far as Yong Wen Shi knows, he is the only one who got taught all 4 zhaoyang quan forms..... He also released a book on san lo zhaoyang quan. very nice form.

That video you link to is the same Chao Yang Quan set I always see, except done much better of course.
It follows the postures seen in the Shaolin Encyc. exactly for Chao Yang (with smoother transitions).

It is different from the posture names given for Guan Chao Quan.
Maybe LFJ can post the names in pinyin and english here.