taijiquan training - state park walking

[Skip J.]

Skip,
My advice would be to make haste a little more slowly.

You seem to be grasping the stepping pattern quite well though.
Yes, the idea is not to move your center forward all at once, rather in a smooth, integrated fashion as appropriate. This allows you to root before you ever need to issue jing.

Don't forget the role of the knee. It is crucial. One knee (leg really but I'm focusing on knees here) sends energy, one receives and controls.
Heel lands, knee bends a little (always keep in mind I'm shortcutting here, this means "move center forward slightly, knee bends to accomodate", but that's a lot to type so it will go without saying from here on out), ball of the foot lands (think bubbling well), the knee bends a little more, toes grip, then knee completes its receiving of the energy from your back leg, transmitted through your center.
There are six joints working in your legs (infinitely more in your feet) to keep your center level. You should not feel any jerking, rising or falling of your center when you do this, it should all be quite level when using the six joints to keep it that way (2 ankles, 2 knees, 2 hips).

And for crying out loud....
SLOW DOWN A LITTLE!
It takes years to figure this stuff out, relax and enjoy it rather than pushing yourself to the point of pain.
Believe me, it will work a LOT better that way.

Ah well Bob; you have identified the issue from afar.... it does look like I am incorportaing some external "pushing the possible" a bit fast to be able to include TCC principles, don't it? Truth be told, if I didn't have 2 years of chi walking done, I wouldn't be ready to even consider stairwalking as you describe it.

On the other hand I do - just barely - understand what you're saying - and I guess I want to get it down in print before one of us goes away..... Part of my background is that I do practice an attitude of "if there is any pain, then it is not TCC" including being out of breath. So to get to here, it has been a slowwww process; very much a TCC process. For instance, when walking 6 miles Saturday; I noticed the hips would sing the instant they went one little bit forward past my workout level. That was a constant issue because you are building up some speed when walking that brings the leg forward which pulls the hip forward with inertia. I am not adding in the ankle roll - anymore than I already do so naturally - at all; only implementing the ankle roll when stepping out into posture here at home once or twice at a time. So to me it seems I am being slow about the whole thing; but singing hips and ankles say maybe not I guess.

For now, I'll keep on stairwalking several times a day, but maybe just do the ankle roll once a week to keep it in my mind. I know it will be at least a year before I can do the ankle roll in class, but as you say, it takes as long as it takes....

Actually my knees are my weak joints. I haven't had to wear my knee straps for years, but started back recently when it came time to start learning kicks in the form. Probably your good words on the knees may be the best info I need at the moment.

Moving on somewhat impatiently, but slowwwly.....

Thanks Bob!

[Skip J.]

Don't forget the role of the knee. It is crucial. One knee (leg really but I'm focusing on knees here) sends energy, one receives and controls.
Heel lands, knee bends a little (always keep in mind I'm shortcutting here, this means "move center forward slightly, knee bends to accomodate", but that's a lot to type so it will go without saying from here on out), ball of the foot lands (think bubbling well), the knee bends a little more, toes grip, then knee completes its receiving of the energy from your back leg, transmitted through your center.
There are six joints working in your legs (infinitely more in your feet) to keep your center level. You should not feel any jerking, rising or falling of your center when you do this, it should all be quite level when using the six joints to keep it that way (2 ankles, 2 knees, 2 hips).

Ok - I just did a flight of stairs with a knee socket workout. I'm not going to be doing that again without having both my knee straps on!

I'm sure that I am not going to be able to combine a hip socket rotation into a knee socket rotation into an ankle socket rotation for at least a year... While it looks oh so slow on the outside, that is a whole lotta thinking going on at one time.

But I can readily see that Bob has so kindly provided me the parts and pieces of the answer to my problem about maintaining my root when stepping out. In fact, in a few short days; he has completely redefined the nature of rooting for me. It's one thing to talk about it; but a whole 'nuther thing entirely to actually give it a try to do it.

Of course, I'll try just about anything if it's a TCC principle.....

[Skip J.]

I'm sure that I am not going to be able to combine a hip socket rotation into a knee socket rotation into an ankle socket rotation for at least a year... While it looks oh so slow on the outside, that is a whole lotta thinking going on at one time.

I just thought I would practice the knee rotation by itself for awhile until I had it a little bit better. Silly me...

Bob said:

"it should all be quite level when using the six joints to keep it that way (2 ankles, 2 knees, 2 hips)."

Well... in order to do the knee rotation going upstairs; "doing" the ankle and hip rotation is all part of the same movement, the knee cannot be be done by itself without incorporating the other two into the "movement". At least not now, maybe later... Good thing I can kinda-sorta do the other two already....

I guess I'm not slowing down any huh???? Well, I tried...

[Bob Ashmore]

Skip,
You've learned this big.
Now, make it smaller.
Big is how you learn, small is how you do.
Remember when you were just learning to write? They gave you a pencil that you had to sling over your sholder and a page with HUGE lines and even dotted lines to mark the halfway point of a single line.
That's how you learn to write, you start big, you practice until you can do it smaller, then smaller, until you are in the correct range.
TCC is no different.
You start by learning large, open, rounded and extended movements. You practice them over and over again until you learn them well, then you begin to make them smaller.
Over time, you reach the correct range and then you have learned them well and can do them correctly.
Actually, you learn EVERYTHING this way.
But I digress.

Now that you've got the rotation going, start making it less dramatic.
You'll find that you will have much less strain that way.

[Skip J.]

Skip,
You've learned this big.
Now, make it smaller.
Big is how you learn, small is how you do.
Remember when you were just learning to write? They gave you a pencil that you had to sling over your sholder and a page with HUGE lines and even dotted lines to mark the halfway point of a single line.
That's how you learn to write, you start big, you practice until you can do it smaller, then smaller, until you are in the correct range.
TCC is no different.
You start by learning large, open, rounded and extended movements. You practice them over and over again until you learn them well, then you begin to make them smaller.
Over time, you reach the correct range and then you have learned them well and can do them correctly.
Actually, you learn EVERYTHING this way.
But I digress.

Now that you've got the rotation going, start making it less dramatic.
You'll find that you will have much less strain that way.

Thanks once again for your kinds words Bob; but perhaps I have overstated my understanding of what you are saying and implied I could actually do them a bit. If so, I apologize deeply.

Over the past 5 years I have followed this big-to-small concept in my hand movements, mostly in peng postures with our largest arm/hand movements. When all the visible movement is actually being done by the center/back legs/waist; then following the big-to-small is not easy at all. Consequently, once again, I think I have a handle on your big-to-small concept for hip/knee/ankle rotations. But its' gonna be awhile before I can do them together at all, much less refine them. We're talking several years here I think to get from here to there.

[Skip J.]

We've got our reservations for Lake Raven this weekend and expect to put in 10 or 12 miles of the deadly dangerous forest walking.

I'm gonna be kinda quiet here for awhile - except for some of the litehearted threads maybe.

My instructor passed away suddenly a few days ago, and we're all in shock here now.

Rest in Peace Donna K.; we will all miss you so......

Ya'll take care now, watch the approaching bus and don't let it run you down...

[Skip J.]

Life does go on, don't it??????? The students are planning a first class memorial for all of the classes together this week..... next week we all go on.

We did go to Lake Raven and work out our demons this weekend, it was great! We did a speedy 6 miles on Friday and 7 miles on Saturday - about the most we've ever done....

Moving too fast to do any deliberate hip-knee-ankle rotations; but the extra hip-flex which comes with the stairwalking training got a real workout. They don't hurt, but they sure are singing....

Being able to sense the tree roots coming without looking down is now becoming second nature! The trick is to deliberately step on them rather than try to step over them, unless they're really high off the ground. When you step on them you know for sure where they really are.

[KTS]

Skip,
You've learned this big.
Now, make it smaller.
Big is how you learn, small is how you do.
Remember when you were just learning to write? They gave you a pencil that you had to sling over your sholder and a page with HUGE lines and even dotted lines to mark the halfway point of a single line.
That's how you learn to write, you start big, you practice until you can do it smaller, then smaller, until you are in the correct range.
TCC is no different.
You start by learning large, open, rounded and extended movements. You practice them over and over again until you learn them well, then you begin to make them smaller.
Over time, you reach the correct range and then you have learned them well and can do them correctly.
Actually, you learn EVERYTHING this way.
But I digress.

Now that you've got the rotation going, start making it less dramatic.
You'll find that you will have much less strain that way.

i actually like to start with larger warm up and silk reeling exercises. many times, for the movement, i will start from small, expand, then contract and repeat.

but, i know exactly what u are saying. generally taught, movement are more large to help open the body and increase muscle tone, etc.

also, for health, large movements are more mandatory, but for martial application, one has to perfect the smaller movements after larger frame work. the martial side though, will increase health benefits. so, i think both larger and smaller frame movements have certain health purposes, just on different levels.

[Skip J.]

i actually like to start with larger warm up and silk reeling exercises. many times, for the movement, i will start from small, expand, then contract and repeat.

but, i know exactly what u are saying. generally taught, movement are more large to help open the body and increase muscle tone, etc.

also, for health, large movements are more mandatory, but for martial application, one has to perfect the smaller movements after larger frame work. the martial side though, will increase health benefits. so, i think both larger and smaller frame movements have certain health purposes, just on different levels.

Hello KTS;

The style I take is a small frame style, so I don't have much experience with large frame movements. But the charge Bob has given me is very different from my own experience for just that reason, so I have to practice it on a large scale just to be able to see it. Actually, just to be able to envision it before I do it.

Rotating the hip socket around the leg bone is a natural part of sink-and-float. But you add in a step going upstairs and then it gets real complicated real fast.

[Skip J.]

Rotating the hip socket around the leg bone is a natural part of sink-and-float. But you add in a step going upstairs and then it gets real complicated real fast.

I am going to take a day - or two - and forget the hands while I reinforce the sink-and-float (while) stepping upstairs with hip/knee/ankle socket rotations. A while back Bob said go slowwwly, and it's time for that now. A part of what Bob added with the cloud hands movement was a side-to-side aspect that facilitates the whole process. So - for the moment - I'm dropping the hand-scoop part of the CH movement and concentrating on utilizing the side-to-side momentum as flow to enable the step-up part. I already know the upward scoop of the arm will add a bit more upward momentum to the body stepping up.

[Bob Ashmore]

It does, and the extension of the other arm adds to the side to side with the waist turn being incorporated as a whole body movement.
Don't overturn, don't forget to fold.

Yes, big to small. After you've acheived that, then small or big as you need it.
Large frame is for learning the movements and health aspects. Medium and small frames are also for health but more difficult and much more likely the frame you would use in a free fight (but if you think you can't use large frame in a free fight, you might want to think again).
However, if you don't see something first you won't even know it needs to be done. For that the large frame is far superior as nothing is "hidden" or internalized to the point where there is no outward movement.
Until you see that you even have something to learn how will you know to do it? Once you have learned the movement properly then you can make it progressevily smaller until you are able to make it so small others can't see you do it.

[Skip J.]

I'm gonna make it... I think.

[Skip J.]

Well, I was kinda quiet there for about 10 days.

Bob's Stairwalking Hip-Knee-Ankle Rotations:
Put in a good 6 miles Saturday on the flat and will go again tomorrow. Utilizing Bob's "split the hips from each other" method has lengthened my stride a little bit and added some combat power to the turn-at-the-waist.

So here I am cruisin' along extending each hip a little forwards each time that leg steps out. Can you just imagine splitting the hips for 6 miles of power walking... not strolling along slow? Well, If you haven't actually done it, you can't imagine it either. You talk about singin' out, my hips were talking to me for the next 3 days...... strongly!

uki's Running in Boulders with 2 Swords:
Ya'll mite remember that I started this thread from uki's post about running in boulders with swords....

After we finished the 6 miles and were walking thru the Japanese gardens to cool down; my wife headed for her favorite part, walking on the natural stone path. uki has some experience laying stone I have heard. Anyway, here we are cruisin' down these round-top stones and I decide what the heck, and start walking with my chin back and eyes straight ahead and not looking at the stones as I stepped on'em.

I did manage to not trip and fall over about 100' of path; but it was a close thing several time. Sooo... naturally I'm thinking of uki's post while I'm doin' it.

[Skip J.]

More woods walking on Friday and Saturday a few weeks back. Been busy lately and haven't been on here much since we started a new job.

I need to get my head together and get squared away to compete in Dallas in June. I am right at the end of learning the 32 and doing my best not to crater at the last minute. I know all you long timers did this a decade ago, but for me it is all new....

See ya'll in Dallas!