Registered User
Hoping to start a discussion regarding the WC concept of Centerline. I would like to know people's idea/definition of what Centerline is, how it's used, and why it is even important for fighting.
Hopefully, this will spark some WC-specific conversation that is most time lost in these forums after a few pages
Registered User
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally Posted by JPinAZ
Hoping to start a discussion regarding the WC concept of Centerline. I would like to know people's idea/definition of what Centerline is, how it's used, and why it is even important for fighting.
Hopefully, this will spark some WC-specific conversation that is most time lost in these forums after a few pages
Jung sin = centerline or centerline plane
Jung sum sin = vertical motherline
See also the arucle entiteld "Defending the Motherline" at:<www.tempewingchun.com>
joy chaudhuri
Registered User
Thanks Joy. I read a good portion of the article. I see a lot about the motherline (Jung sum sin). Unless I missed it, not much regarding the Center line (Jung sin). For you, what is the distinction and/or relation between the two?
Registered User
----------------------------------------------------------
JP- whenever there are two persons involved- the jung sin is the centerline or plane connecting the two jung sum sins involved. If you are alone your jung sin is the connection between your
jung sum sin and that of your shadow- for instance in the mirror.
joy chaudhuri
Banned
In addition to one's own main centerline (motherline), and in addition to attacking the CENTER of the mass that the opponent is showing you - when you are close enough to do this....for me there is also the shoulder lines that can be viewed as two additional centerlines (sometimes referred to as part of a general TWC term, the CENTRAL LINE).
Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 09-29-2009 at 07:52 PM.
Registered User
we tend to say axis. While it is still not totally correct it gives a better idea then centre line. We just say your centre depends on your opponent. It is the shortest distance in a straight line to your opponents centre. So if they are in front then the normal centre applies. If they are on my right side them until i can turn to correct my hand should go from where it is to his face. This would be the centre line as well. So you can either think of several centres or just 'the centre is from where my fist starts to his face in a straight line.'
Last edited by bennyvt; 09-29-2009 at 07:19 AM.
Registered User
in Lee Sing wing chun i was taught the obvious centreline theory about protecting it as it contains the nose, chin, throat, solar plexus, and groin. all very vulnerable areas.
i also learn it as an axis, but that it is slightly different in that you uproot/manoeuvre them through this axis. i learnt very little about fighting centreline to centreline in LSWC as this wasnt the approach that was favoured
in WSL method i learn a LOT of centreline to cetreline fighting. yet they had the same teacher... different strokes for different folks i guess
Registered User
The centerline is defined each time we open a form.
We x the wrists and extend along the line .
This is a striking line the fists /elbows follow.
We are shown to aim the fingers down , this stops the elbows from raising up and down as we learn NOT to raise the elbows up and down while fighting.
the centerline is intersected by our arms in acute angles that create a forearm surface area capable of becoming a deflecting surface/controlling also allowing our fists to strike forwards at the same time without stopping to stick , or use the hand itself to stop the striking idea and go into chasing, grabbing, over trapping/sticking, etc... just one strike along the centerline, followed by another who's wrists is also xing along the centerline as it swaps out in rotation.
By intersecting the 'c' line we create an attacking line that is never open to counters...
By attacking with one lead and one rear hand we can never be trapped to stop our attacking hand...unlike using two extanded hands along the same line [as drills].
the line , by design wil intersect 'potential' contact by adopting angling tactics, to strike over lines of potential force....iow we strike with the idea to tactically be xing any arm that comes at us with our centerline...[we only face each other vt & vt to drill from]
centerlines dont fight facing each other...knife examples will allow the idea to be understood. We dont want to make the opponent 'equal' using their 2 hands /weapons versus our 2 hands/ weapons...so we attempt to use the line to aim it and move it or allow the opponent to cross it themselves , as we fight them.
The intial drawing of the line before every form seems to be low so other ideas are born from lack of understanding this idea...its not a high low gaun sao , yet many will train years thinking this.
The forsm are for solo time to train your strikes /elbow positions along the line you start with , for reference to move your wrists along and position your elbows...
Our form SLT starts with making the striking path of our arms symmetrically before us. The idea being we can strike and reach with both arms to the target.
We then strike with our fist first xing the line then the elbow coming to the line as the wrists stays xing... a line forming from outside of our wrists to the inside of our elbow ...
froming a basic strike starting position. The tighter the better. Then we strike ...
To give the newly learned punch with 'empty energy' a new striking idea , we then move to form section with TAN-huen-JUM then vu sao and we repeat this several times back and forth along the line, wrists xing elbows moving to the centerline before striking off and back to the line later ....
We only do this elbow in training in SLT ....the shoulder girdle muscles of the pec's and the lat's are used to connect the striking upper arm position inwards [ elbows move in]
so we develop endurance to maintain the elbows in so the strikes adopt an acute angle for development further in dan chi sao...etc...to fighting.
In the SLT we use the line as reference to move our wrists to before the elbow so we develop instinctive positioning with little thought..
To give the centerline alignment under pressure/force, we use simple arm exercises
dan chi sao we dont use a downward wrist deflection becasue many adopt the wrist from not being taught jum sao in the beginning of SLT ..many go tan huen vu using wrist and move back etc...jumonly being shown in the latter sect of SLT ...
Dan chi allows the wrist and elbows to stay aimed at the head of the partner/opponent while utilizing the shoulder girdle muscles to 'hold' the initial striking position , thus giving us a basic punch with the ability to 'hold and protect our own vulnerability as we attack ...[attack being the goal to develop]
a tan sao uses the elbow to spread away from the centerline elbow position making the energy of the elbow spreading off the centerline , disperse anything away and 'outside the forearm as it strikes forwards with a vertical palm or fist [ v palm is elbow moving out]
A jum counter in the dan chi-sao is using the muscle group to 'hold' the line inwards , thus giving the partner some counter force to avoid focusing on moving the arm and taking the tan offline like a basic karate block... The jum sao start by doing elbow in as SLT section before elbows relax back to vu sao posiitons....In the drill we hold the elows in and kep them in as we strike the partners arm after they do tan strike...
Our jum force maintains protective coverag along the centerline from the inside of the arm , a horizontal or sidepalm creates jum force too....[ dummy is tan and jum at the sides aligning].
With the simple 2 strikes developing in dan chi-sao we beging to realixze that the main concerns for development we have are to strike along our lines and focus on the target ..NOT to try to feel and stick rolling in a redundant manner ...otherwise you are losing the striking development , for feeling sticking chasing mistakes.
These mistakes are easily shown , by training with sudden arm displacemnt from either partner, to see if one or the other is following the arm rataher than aiming to strike the partner AND use the arm alignment to do the deflecting secondary ...
The 2 stage elbow position / strike is then made redundant as we progress to the next levels od chi-sao....becaus we now have arms capable of basic 2 action strikes but with the idea to further this ability so they don strike in 2 beats anymore while freefighting...
simple punches from angles using out/in force of the strikes or opposite depending what side you fight from to fight the oponents centerline positions...
mobility and alignment ....
Chum ki gives mobility to the SLT idea ...
many will fight our arms because they are out stretched before us.....like meat to hungry animal
By striking x ing our line we naturally sweep it of obstacles and create our own bridging actions , reclaiming the striking attack by simply ...striking again. Tut sao or the sweeping hands , swapping out teach this idea, to seamlessly without opening your centerline, swap strikes out and recover the ability to strike from the VU-Sao = attacking hand ....tut sao is not a wrist grab freeing hand 'move' only a fool would think this. Again its aimed low to stop elbows coming up and down.
The Centerlines are used in a spatial manner only relative to the vt fighter and his arms along it as they rotate and stay aligned along it...
When we do the dummy many assume we turn away from the main body to 'turn' energy..this is a mistake that is simple to rectify, by thinking that wherever your centerline is aiming , is where the opponent has moved to....ie they where in fron then went right or left as you attacked them. get out of the idea of turning your centerline away from them....
Think firing a rifle in motion with a guy trying to fire with 2 possible weapons back at you....maintain motion to stay out of the center of 2 hands /legs. Be a hard target .. dont adopt a lead leg in a face off...your going to move right or left or along a parimeter line as the dummy before entering at the flanks ....this can be by their moves giving you entry to them or by attacking them and making them turn before you to cover up or you lop them to turn them ...
centerlines are relative to your aim and not being aimed back the same... why vt doesnt fight vt only drills facing as a starting point to move from...chi-sao can be misleading if the goals arent explained early on...
Last edited by k gledhill; 09-29-2009 at 06:08 AM.
Wing Chun Fighter
How many years should someone practice Sil Lim Tao...Is there ever a time when they should stop practicing it and go on to other things in life.
The centerline is defined each time we open a form.
We x the wrists and extend along the line .
This is a striking line the fists /elbows follow.
We are shown to aim the fingers down , this stops the elbows from raising up and down as we learn NOT to raise the elbows up and down while fighting.
the centerline is intersected by our arms in acute angles that create a forearm surface area capable of becoming a deflecting surface/controlling also allowing our fists to strike forwards at the same time without stopping to stick , or use the hand itself to stop the striking idea and go into chasing, grabbing, over trapping/sticking, etc... just one strike along the centerline, followed by another who's wrists is also xing along the centerline as it swaps out in rotation.
By intersecting the 'c' line we create an attacking line that is never open to counters...
By attacking with one lead and one rear hand we can never be trapped to stop our attacking hand...unlike using two extanded hands along the same line [as drills].
the line , by design wil intersect 'potential' contact by adopting angling tactics, to strike over lines of potential force....iow we strike with the idea to tactically be xing any arm that comes at us with our centerline...[we only face each other vt & vt to drill from]
centerlines dont fight facing each other...knife examples will allow the idea to be understood. We dont want to make the opponent 'equal' using their 2 hands /weapons versus our 2 hands/ weapons...so we attempt to use the line to aim it and move it or allow the opponent to cross it themselves , as we fight them.
The intial drawing of the line before every form seems to be low so other ideas are born from lack of understanding this idea...its not a high low gaun sao , yet many will train years thinking this.
The forsm are for solo time to train your strikes /elbow positions along the line you start with , for reference to move your wrists along and position your elbows...
Our form SLT starts with making the striking path of our arms symmetrically before us. The idea being we can strike and reach with both arms to the target.
We then strike with our fist first xing the line then the elbow coming to the line as the wrists stays xing... a line forming from outside of our wrists to the inside of our elbow ...
froming a basic strike starting position. The tighter the better. Then we strike ...
To give the newly learned punch with 'empty energy' a new striking idea , we then move to form section with TAN-huen-JUM then vu sao and we repeat this several times back and forth along the line, wrists xing elbows moving to the centerline before striking off and back to the line later ....
We only do this elbow in training in SLT ....the shoulder girdle muscles of the pec's and the lat's are used to connect the striking upper arm position inwards [ elbows move in]
so we develop endurance to maintain the elbows in so the strikes adopt an acute angle for development further in dan chi sao...etc...to fighting.
In the SLT we use the line as reference to move our wrists to before the elbow so we develop instinctive positioning with little thought..
To give the centerline alignment under pressure/force, we use simple arm exercises
dan chi sao we dont use a downward wrist deflection becasue many adopt the wrist from not being taught jum sao in the beginning of SLT ..many go tan huen vu using wrist and move back etc...jumonly being shown in the latter sect of SLT ...
Dan chi allows the wrist and elbows to stay aimed at the head of the partner/opponent while utilizing the shoulder girdle muscles to 'hold' the initial striking position , thus giving us a basic punch with the ability to 'hold and protect our own vulnerability as we attack ...[attack being the goal to develop]
a tan sao uses the elbow to spread away from the centerline elbow position making the energy of the elbow spreading off the centerline , disperse anything away and 'outside the forearm as it strikes forwards with a vertical palm or fist [ v palm is elbow moving out]
A jum counter in the dan chi-sao is using the muscle group to 'hold' the line inwards , thus giving the partner some counter force to avoid focusing on moving the arm and taking the tan offline like a basic karate block... The jum sao start by doing elbow in as SLT section before elbows relax back to vu sao posiitons....In the drill we hold the elows in and kep them in as we strike the partners arm after they do tan strike...
Our jum force maintains protective coverag along the centerline from the inside of the arm , a horizontal or sidepalm creates jum force too....[ dummy is tan and jum at the sides aligning].
With the simple 2 strikes developing in dan chi-sao we beging to realixze that the main concerns for development we have are to strike along our lines and focus on the target ..NOT to try to feel and stick rolling in a redundant manner ...otherwise you are losing the striking development , for feeling sticking chasing mistakes.
These mistakes are easily shown , by training with sudden arm displacemnt from either partner, to see if one or the other is following the arm rataher than aiming to strike the partner AND use the arm alignment to do the deflecting secondary ...
The 2 stage elbow position / strike is then made redundant as we progress to the next levels od chi-sao....becaus we now have arms capable of basic 2 action strikes but with the idea to further this ability so they don strike in 2 beats anymore while freefighting...
simple punches from angles using out/in force of the strikes or opposite depending what side you fight from to fight the oponents centerline positions...
mobility and alignment ....
Chum ki gives mobility to the SLT idea ...
many will fight our arms because they are out stretched before us.....like meat to hungry animal
By striking x ing our line we naturally sweep it of obstacles and create our own bridging actions , reclaiming the striking attack by simply ...striking again. Tut sao or the sweeping hands , swapping out teach this idea, to seamlessly without opening your centerline, swap strikes out and recover the ability to strike from the VU-Sao = attacking hand ....tut sao is not a wrist grab freeing hand 'move' only a fool would think this. Again its aimed low to stop elbows coming up and down.
The Centerlines are used in a spatial manner only relative to the vt fighter and his arms along it as they rotate and stay aligned along it...
When we do the dummy many assume we turn away from the main body to 'turn' energy..this is a mistake that is simple to rectify, by thinking that wherever your centerline is aiming , is where the opponent has moved to....ie they where in fron then went right or left as you attacked them. get out of the idea of turning your centerline away from them....
Think firing a rifle in motion with a guy trying to fire with 2 possible weapons back at you....maintain motion to stay out of the center of 2 hands /legs. Be a hard target .. dont adopt a lead leg in a face off...your going to move right or left or along a parimeter line as the dummy before entering at the flanks ....this can be by their moves giving you entry to them or by attacking them and making them turn before you to cover up or you lop them to turn them ...
centerlines are relative to your aim and not being aimed back the same... why vt doesnt fight vt only drills facing as a starting point to move from...chi-sao can be misleading if the goals arent explained early on...
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Registered User
BennyVT's "axis" is a good characterization - I also use it and is equivalent to jung sum sin.
The center line is not static- varies with facing. The shoulder lines point to the center lines.
joy chaudhuri
Banned
"With the simple 2 strikes developing in dan chi-sao we begin to realize that the main concerns for development we have are to strike along our lines and focus on the target ..NOT to try to feel and stick rolling in a redundant manner ...otherwise you are losing the striking development." (k gledhill)
...............................
***Good one. The main purpose of the centerline within Wing Chun is to provide a principle and a strategy that starts with a tight defense, but ultimately leads to the ability to continuously strike your opponent while minimizing his ability to attack you - because you dominate the LINE that represents, at any given moment, a PATH that is the shortest distance between the two of you...and so your strikes come in at a speed and at a CLOSE ENOUGH DISTANCE that makes it very difficult for him to stop, counter attack, or escape.
Now add in some strong forward movement that keeps his body in check, jammed up, perhaps even backing up and hopefully even somewhat unbalanced - and now we see a good chance of a knockout coming.
Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 09-29-2009 at 07:53 PM.
Registered User
If carefully read one can see some different starting points in 3 Ip man lines linked in one way or another to Ho Kam Ming, WSL and TWC. There are similarities and differences-the devil in the details.
joy chaudhuri
Registered User
WC Centerline is an imaginary line between your center of mass and your opponent's center of mass. Its use in WCK and in fighting has to do with the idea that an attack traveling down this line will reach an opponent more quickly than an attack off of the centerline. Also, that occupying the centerline with a structured tool such as jong sau leaves you in a position to both block direct attacks from your opponent as well as to launch attacks yourself in the most direct fashion. In a free-form fighting or sparring application functionally centerline is used in manipulating the space between yourself and your opponent through footwork and the bridge such that your facing is along the centerline and your opponents is not, leaving you with the opportunity to attack along the centerline while your opponent needs to react and re-establish their defense along the centerline. This is used in conjunction with forward intent or forward pressure to maintain a constant offensive threat towards the opponent making it difficult for them to regain their structure, balance, or facing along the centerline.Hoping to start a discussion regarding the WC concept of Centerline. I would like to know people's idea/definition of what Centerline is, how it's used, and why it is even important for fighting.
Hopefully, this will spark some WC-specific conversation that is most time lost in these forums after a few pages
Last edited by Wayfaring; 09-29-2009 at 02:21 PM.
Junior Member
Jung Sum Sien would be better translated as "Center of Gravity line", but it would not seem to exactly coincide with Augustine Fong's definition of "Mother" or "Vertical" line...
Jung Sien is:
1) Attack and defense line
2) Anatomical Centerline (Anatomy Western or Chinese)
3) Two hands are even (when you steer a car, you are not exactly driving straight, but making adjustments left and right)
4) the center of gravity
5) Fastest line of entry
6) Attack on the point of contact
These concepts are not limited to what is called Jung Sien in Chinese, but are the basis for WCK's concept of Jung Sien Dui Ying (Centerline correspondence/facing).
Registered User
its up to you...After x amount of years I do elbow 'in'ntractionswhile waiting for an elevator etc...anytime I'm alone I find myself doing a vt arm thing...snapping the bong sao laterally across the line sharply and bringing then elbow back in to strike as fast as I can...trying to make it snappy and recovering with little thought...to do things thoughtlessly you must do them 1000's of times.
The chi-sao dan chi~ lok sao etc....ingrains us with these movements and positions, with a goal in YOUR mind the countless bongsaos that recover back to strike etc...the 1000's of attacking entries with a 1/2 step into the center ...the counters to an entry side with the correct angles /impact/ balance ...takes time. How long is how much you can do it with partners.
Forms are 'solo' time for you to develop a good endurance for your stance so its effortless in a real fight of a few seconds...you drop low and fight ...balanced with footwork from Chum Kil...turning on your axis builds a confidence in motion along with flowing mobility ...
The dummy gives us an impact alignment tool to develop 'ging' or shock force and alignment while also training a cycling attack/defense rotation in the arms...each arm cycles from attacking to deflection and back again in the first sections...
dummy is attacking along the parallel line before an opponent avoiding the attack but moving laterally to your line
Like walking into a room and turning the light off, locking the car door , we do them so many times that it becomes an action we do as we pass the switch, we forget if we locked the car door becasue we did it without thinking about it....
make vt like a light switch and you can rest
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