Wing Chun Centerline

[k gledhill]

further to the centerline idea in SLT etc....If you use your wrists to deflect in chi-sao you will NEVER develop the striking simultaneously with 2 free arms along the centerline idea....iow do a downward wrist to a tan strike etc...in dan chi... uh, uh, aint gonna happen ......how are you going to drop your wrist over a strike... drop it down...THEN hit up, simple really , you wont ..unless your being shown to fight in a drill ... then fighting a different way in 'sparring' at the end of class


wristing is a bad word we do it in bil gee....because we have to. last resort stuff...

[Yoshiyahu]

further to the centerline idea in SLT etc....If you use your wrists to deflect in chi-sao you will NEVER develop the striking simultaneously with 2 free arms along the centerline idea....iow do a downward wrist to a tan strike etc...in dan chi... uh, uh, aint gonna happen ......how are you going to drop your wrist over a strike... drop it down...THEN hit up, simple really , you wont ..unless your being shown to fight in a drill ... then fighting a different way in 'sparring' at the end of class


wristing is a bad word we do it in bil gee....because we have to. last resort stuff...

Great answer Gled...

Any who I wanted to share what your protecting the center line you are protecting your Center Line. Its interesting its like there is an imaiginary line that travels up your chest over your head, down you back and under you perninum back to your groin and up your chest again. The front portion is called the Conception Meridan that back portion is known as that Governing Meridan. If one trains hard and develops his fist. He can strike this points with great power and end fights rather quickly.

Conception Meridan




When you protect the center line you are protecting the points found on this channel. Thats why the center line theory is so important. In fact regardless if you attack over the gates or from outside the doors or if you attack by entering the doors. You are attacking their center line. When you attack from various gates you are attacking out doors. But when you open their doors and attack inside their guards you are in doors. The centerline aka motherline is teaching how to defend and attack the Governing and Conception meridans. These vessels are your targets. In fact if you have sand bag dummy which is made like a body filled with sand or rocks you should practicing hitting the points on the center line to memorize them. So it becomes natural or habitual. You want it to become normal where you automatically hit the Center line points with out thinking about it.

The wooden dummy form assist you in attacking the outer doors and entering inside the doors.

Below is a diagram of the Way Chi is theorized to circulate.

[k gledhill]

Dont worry nothing a few beers and a good bar brawl cant fix....when 3 strange guys come at you with intent to do you harm ..the last thing on your mind is their centerlines

first come first served ...nearest weapon to target...woila 3 versus 1 skinny dude [me]

[Yoshiyahu]

Dont worry nothing a few beers and a good bar brawl cant fix....when 3 strange guys come at you with intent to do you harm ..the last thing on your mind is their centerlines

first come first served ...nearest weapon to target...woila 3 versus 1 skinny dude [me]

What if attacking their centerline is so ingrain that you instinctively attack their centerline!!!

[k gledhill]

that could be fixed...time heals all.

[Yoshiyahu]

Their is a dummy that is made so you can paint marks for the pressure points on it.


What is that dummy called?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

my 2 counterfeit cents on the "centreline..."

In the Moy Yat derived lineage I was in, there was the midline (equivalent to the motherline mentioned above) and the centreline (roughly equivalent to a combination of YoshiYahu's Ren Mai defense fixation and Vajramusti's centreline concept.)

In the Wing Chun I learned in BC, the motherline was the spine. Any action on the opponent should affect their spine, and we should protect our spine from being affected by our opponent. The centreline was closer to ChuSauLi's Jung Sien idea, but rather than being the "center of gravity" line, it was explained more as a "balance" line. Occupying the centreline is, therefore, a function of having the initiative regarding movement of one's motherline and that of one's opponent. In a striking situation this means applying a strike, block or deflection that will affect their balance, ie an appropriately structured tool along the appropriate line of force at the appropriate time.

In grappling/trapping situations, the same applies: having the initiative in regards to the motherlines, and directing force through the bridge in a way that will affect their balance.

[chusauli]

I'm afraid I am confused. I never use the term "mother line". What is that in Chinese?

I only heard the term "Jung Sien" (Centerline) or "Jung Sum Sien" (Center of Gravity line) in WCK. Help me translate into Chinese...

[Hendrik]

I'm afraid I am confused. I never use the term "mother line". What is that in Chinese?

I only heard the term "Jung Sien" (Centerline) or "Jung Sum Sien" (Center of Gravity line) in WCK. Help me translate into Chinese...

RC,


IMHO,

Pull out the Fang Chi-Niang White CRane Kuen kuit which you have, The Center line is well define there 400 years ago.

It was called Tze Wu sien (in mandarin) be side Choong Sien (in mandaring)

Today's there is just too many speculation and distortion for this simple concept getting into the ren mai, du mai......etc. Too much stories.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Hi Robert,

I understand your confusion - counterfeit currency tends to do that.

It was very late when I posted that. I had just finished reading the whole thread, and wrote motherline instead of midline. Neither of my instructors used the Chinese names for midline and centreline - one of them used no chinese terminology at all. Even though they both expressed the ideas slightly differently, in the end they both used "midline" when talking about structural alignment (be it the symmetrical midline, meridians, spine, or vertical axis,) and "centreline" when talking about dynamic force alignment between oneself and one's opponent.

[Wayfaring]

I'm going to modify my response on HFY centerline since Johathan hasn't revisited this discussion:

HFY has 2 centerlines. They are expressed in the HFY WCK formula #1 which expresses and outlines the 10 bright points or Sup Ming Dim. These are the defining foundational structures of HFY.

1) Your Centerline - this is the line down the middle of your body. In HFY you express this in the WCK formula by turning around it with no balance distortion. This also represents maintaining your own structure first before worrying about an opponent's structure.

2) Centerline to Target - this is the line from your centerline to your opponent's centerline. This is mostly what I was talking about in my previous post and this is what comes into play in fighting in relationship to your opponent.

So in HFY from my perspective fundamentally centerline consists of your own structure within yourself and maintaining it around a centerline, and protecting and fighting along the centerline to your opponent.

The quote I recall from Garrett Gee the HFY lineage holder on this point is "you live and die on the centerline".

[duende]

I'm going to modify my response on HFY centerline since Johathan hasn't revisited this discussion:

HFY has 2 centerlines. They are expressed in the HFY WCK formula #1 which expresses and outlines the 10 bright points or Sup Ming Dim. These are the defining foundational structures of HFY.

1) Your Centerline - this is the line down the middle of your body. In HFY you express this in the WCK formula by turning around it with no balance distortion. This also represents maintaining your own structure first before worrying about an opponent's structure.

2) Centerline to Target - this is the line from your centerline to your opponent's centerline. This is mostly what I was talking about in my previous post and this is what comes into play in fighting in relationship to your opponent.

So in HFY from my perspective fundamentally centerline consists of your own structure within yourself and maintaining it around a centerline, and protecting and fighting along the centerline to your opponent.

The quote I recall from Garrett Gee the HFY lineage holder on this point is "you live and die on the centerline".

Or... to put it simply... 1) Self-Centerline, and 2) A->B Centerline (closest distance between two points.

Upon engagement (Jeet Kiu), HFY also employs the a third centerline.. the HFY Gee Ng Kiu or "the equator" between you and your opponent. This allows the HFY practitioner to understand the strategic usage of leverage and gravity within the bridge itself. But that's another discussion.


The concept of Centerline is not unique to Wing Chun however. Many other MA's employ centerline-control expressions in one form or another... take grappling's centerline control of the mount for instance.

One concept that is primary to WC, or at least of vastly greater importance... is our notion of Self-Centerline. IE. Maintaining one's balance throughout attacks and defense. Without it we would be leaning, diving, crouching, bending over... doing techniques that had already long been in employment by Animal Kung Fu and other styles.

This does not mean that one should never lean or commit one's gravity to a technique/application. That is not what I'm saying. Those techniques/applications have their own time and space, as any grappler can clearly demonstrate.

What I am saying is that physics of WC teaches us body mechanics and structure energy so that we can generate knock-out power without leaning or over-committing one's COG. And No... I'm not talking about some mystrerious/deadly "1-inch punch" here... I'm talking about rooting and knowing how to generate power from one's structure. A concept and physical expression that is not soley found in WC, but is however clearly defined by our WC concepts and principles.

So all this conversation of WC Centerline, mother-line... etc... bring up the question I have to ask.


Do you all believe one can truly have their own Centerline/Self-Centerline... meaning establishing their own balance and rooting.... without having a 50/50 stance??

I know some people here would have us all believe, that a 50/50 stance is a modern adaptation of WC. But I disagree. As I believe the 50/50 footwork and stance is key to expressing a fundamental and core concept of the WC. The WC Centerline. True Occupation of Center of Gravity. (What we refer to in HFY as OCG)

What say you??

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Do you all believe one can truly have their own Centerline/Self-Centerline... meaning establishing their own balance and rooting.... without having a 50/50 stance??

I know some people here would have us all believe, that a 50/50 stance is a modern adaptation of WC. But I disagree. As I believe the 50/50 footwork and stance is key to expressing a fundamental and core concept of the WC. The WC Centerline. True Occupation of Center of Gravity. (What we refer to in HFY as OCG)

What say you??

I think having your self-centreline means being rooted an balanced no matter what stance you take.

I'd say that the 50/50 stance has its time and place, like any other stance. Personally, I would try not to engage from anything other than a 50/50, but when a situation calls for it I'll gladly adopt a 100/0 stance or anything in between.

[CFT]

Pull out the Fang Chi-Niang White CRane Kuen kuit which you have, The Center line is well define there 400 years ago.

It was called Tze Wu sien (in mandarin) be side Choong Sien (in mandaring)

Today's there is just too many speculation and distortion for this simple concept getting into the ren mai, du mai......etc. Too much stories.

"Tze Wu sien" = "Tze ng sien" = 子午線 which would translate as "meridian"; in other words the "North-South", "12 o'clock-6 o'clock" line. This just seems like the centreline to me - the line that bisects a person vertically into mirror halves.

Babelfish translates centreline as: 中心線, so I can see why we say "jung sien".
For Centre of Gravity line we have: 重心線 (zung sum sien).

Checking out the dictionaries for Cantonese pronounciation, the 重 in 重心 should be pronounced like the 重 in 保重.

[k gledhill]

An axis line runs down from the head to ground....I relate the idea as a rotating door on a sliding track on the floor ...we move so the revolving door can face or shift back according to the lines of force presented and where they are. For us to 'face' them we use the track ...not fixed in rigid lines.
If the revolving door leans forwards or sidewyas , back it cant spin freely on its axis line
So we train in chum kil to have a god balanced movement with tracking, in any flowing combo, to maintain the goals we are also doing in the drills.

You make lateral force [left or right] against the revolving door and it simply turns to the next door space , etc...only the track moves so the revolving door is never in front of you to walk through. or gain axis to it's er...axis line.

We re create strike lines along the centerline as all this is going on so the attempts to stop the leading strike hand by lateral measures is easily thwarted because we are simply filling the void created by the previous exchange with the next ATTACKING action.
By having strikes individually trained to have the ability to be acting like 2 hands , we can use the forearm areas of our arms , striking , to maintain our centerline integrity...by keeping elbows in as we do this we keep the forearms along the line , intercepting anything that happens to intersect it, thoughtlessly, as we ATTACK...

If we allow a space or do too much hand chasing we dont do ATTACKING actions in every move , thus we allow or simply drop the goal...to ATTACK for 9 out of 10 seconds of the engagement.

goals ?how to achieve them....not by standing face to face rolling in a rooting centerline to centerline drill, thats redundant to the actual fighting idea...

Ali had the right idea ....float like a butterfly etc...only we attempt to sting like a SWARM of bees in that short space of time. No rope a dope, more like "hello, im going to be your attacker today, for our 10 second fight..." ...can you deliver a sustained assault without resorting to using 2 hands to fight one of theirs in every exchange...maintain correct angles if they come at you or move away from you, left right ....are you overusing lop saos ....or using the 2 primary attacking actions ?

centerlines become relative to the ideas you are developing , so you learn to strike along lines before you, that you know will intercept anything coming at your line as you angle to them, face them, attack them....

After a while you realize your only facing each others centerlines in chi-sao so you have equal ability to train these ideas, so you can reach with either arm to strike the targets...like gun shooting practice in a range , before moving outside to the practical pistol range where you utilize cover , learn to shootand reload with your weak hand, under stress of timed competition...using blanks in drills to avoid taking the barrel off the target in anticipation of [contacting the arm] rather than staying on target..drills ...without the goals you may end up trying to figure out how to fight a guy whos decided to extend 2 arms at you and roll up and down while standing in a basic stance too... kind of like standing infront of a gy with a gun as he fires back and you fire back facing him trying to block[chase] bullets...

if you can fire and stay out of the face of 2 potential shooting lines and use one of yours extended at a time WHILE adopting movements to give you "cover" from being in the firing line...if the guy tries to face you you move or control the shooting hand to miss as you counter fire at HIM not his arm....

Knives teach us the value of isolating one side and attacking it with a facing 2handed , one kicking legged attack at at time...potentially 3 actions at once versus 1 while staying out of the 'firing range' alley.

Under stress you dont think...many policemen found that under stres they stood upright and pointed their weapon at guys firing back at them...because ? thats how they trained over and over and over...until they realized under stress you dont think very well your re-chambering stuff , putting the saftey on by mistake, gun jams but you canat figure out a simple routine ...under stress.

Just fire and move DONT THINK, use the centerline as your front and rear sights...move for cover in close proximity...its not going to be a long fight.