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Thread: The Take It For Granted Thread

  1. #16
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    freestyle dummy

    the first time i saw someone freestyle on the dummy,was paul vunak's wooden dummy tape from panther video( my favorite tape of all his videos) i thought "this is great!" I've since have had great training sessions on it freestlying.I also enjoy the actual form,it has a lot of little nooks and crannies of wing chun concepts and the footworks really good.
    I do not belieive in hitting it full blast.What i mean by that statement is, i hit it with my structure. now, i can hit it hard like that, but i dont blatantly slam my arms into the arms and leg of the dummy.When i hit it,the whole dummy moves.Hitting it like a madman does not serve any purpose,its detrimental to your development.
    If you want to hit something,a heavybag works just fine,it gives just like hitting someone in the gut........eddie
    sincerly, eddie

  2. #17
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    IMO you can work movements softly on the dummy while learning sequences, distance. correct positioning, etc., but once you got through that you should be striking it hard enough for it to give you feedback on your positioning, alignment and structure. No real impact, no feedback. I guess I could steal the Dog Brothers' "higher consciousness through harder contact" here (apologies to Dale).

    At the same time, mindless full power bashing of the dummy is worthless. You need to be considering correct angles, structure, posture and distancing. Hit it properly, the "recoil" (bad word, but hopefully you know what I mean) is handled by your structure all the way to the floor. If it hurts or you lose balance or position, you have made a mistake.

    While you should hit the dummy hard, you also need to respect it, move out of its way or around it when necessary, etc. Like kettlebells, the dummy has right of way.

    I agree that padding is good, especially if you want to use fists and other hand formations more suited to softer parts of the human anatomy, of which the dummy has none.

    Anyone with half a brain will have worked out you can freestyle on the thing and are not restricted to the formal sequences. The best training tool is always imagination.

    I did try a flying armbar once, but the arms are a bit short.
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  3. #18
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    I think you can hit the dummy as hard as you want. However I think you should still be focused on the timming, distance, forward force and sturcture. If you are just hitting it without these thoughts, I agree it will only hinder your development. If you are hitting hard with these things in mind then I think it can do a great deal for you when you start to transfer all this over to sparring. Getting used to maintaining your structure and control while at full speed and force can help when you start sparring at that same speed.

  4. #19

    Transferring WD into fighting...

    Thoughts?

    And here's some thoughts of my own to throw out there about this: Although there are things within each section that can transfer to unarmed fighting, there is, imo, a very big number of moves in the WD that are really hidden Butterfly Sword techniques, and have little relevance to unarmed combat.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfublow View Post
    That's all great info thanks. It's nice to have some other sources to consult over and above my sifu.

    I also like what you said about using the dummy with both soft force and full force. I would think that would make you more well rounded. I try to do that while I practice but sadly I don't have a dummy at home yet. So my time is limited.
    Well practice the Dummy Form in the air. Then go ahead and freestyle in the air and then find a partner to work out drills.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    Thoughts?

    And here's some thoughts of my own to throw out there about this: Although there are things within each section that can transfer to unarmed fighting, there is, imo, a very big number of moves in the WD that are really hidden Butterfly Sword techniques, and have little relevance to unarmed combat.
    Wow I never thought about the butterfly techniques. Please share some of that with me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    I won't get into actually using moves (or sets of moves) from the WD in actual application in this post, other than to say that, yes, there are moves form each section that are fight applicable, imo...and are taught with that in mind by William Cheung.

    But for now I want to focus on the rest of sanjuro's post: yeah, after doing the set routine (or sometimes even right in the middle of it)...freestyling on it is not only good - but it's an absolute must, imo.

    Because you have to "make it yours", like everything else in WC, or any martial art for that matter. And the more you freestyle (and especially after you've come to understand the meaning of the set routine)...the better you get. Because you start doing things naturally and unconsciously - as this has to be the ultimate goal. One needs to get familiar with the "training/teaching" so intimately that you can perform under fire without thinking much about what you'll do next. It just comes. Including what may not be in the training/teaching/form.

    And yeah, I padded my WD some years ago and go full blast power without fear of injuring my hands/elbows, and it has dramatically increased the time I became willing to spend on the WD, since the arms and leg serve to make full blast punching, kicking, knees, elbows, palm strikes, etc. more disciplined - as just going all out full abandon, while it might be good against a heavy bag, for example (which I also use at my school very frequently)...

    can be a reckless act in actual sparring/fighting...so having to work your way around the WD arms/legs while still striking very hard adds a lot to the game.
    Share some applications of how to use the WC in actual combat?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    I learned the WD form a long time ago, but even back then my older brother, one of them, taught me to fight the wooden man free style. I started out by doing SLT on the dummy. Then much later I started learning the dummy form. We would jump on it and bang the tar out of it. I would use an enter technique and start fighting, using different techniques as I went along. I think it makes for a more fluid transition from one move to the next doing that, plus it seems to have opened my options to meet different situations more. Does that even make sense?
    I never use anything more than the verticle fist, palm, chop, and the bill gee finger stabs for hand techniques. Of course there is the elbow, knee and foot, but you can't make a fist with them. I never did much as far as altering the fist. Like the knuckle jabs and such. Phenix eye? I think the dummy offers you the oppertunity to go all out with some of your techniques without worrying about hurting someone in the process, but I also feel that 2 man drills are the only real way to get it down to a science. Once your drills have given you the proper angles and technique, you can then go all out on the dummy. Something that you can not really do with your training partner. I also pad the dummy. No sense in making clubs out of your hands. Today, if I do the dummy, I will do it free style.
    Well Personally I believe the Phoenix fist and Ginger fist should be conditioned by hitting a wall bag: First with rice, Second with Beans, Third with Sand, Fourth with Gravel, and Fifth with Steel Shots and use plently of Dit Da Jow and do Chi Kung before and after your training.

    But the dummy also assist in muscle memory and training to use of power.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  6. #21
    The section very early in the WD wherein you pak/da underneath the arm (ie.- armpit) and then move to the side and throw a sidekick - is a very obvious one.

    He steps forward with a straight line strike with his weapon

    You have a BS in each hand, and the pak is a block on the outside of his weapon while striking into his armpit from underneath with your other BS - followed by a sidekick to his lead leg.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 10-01-2009 at 11:29 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Well practice the Dummy Form in the air. Then go ahead and freestyle in the air and then find a partner to work out drills.




    Wow I never thought about the butterfly techniques. Please share some of that with me.




    Share some applications of how to use the WC in actual combat?




    Well Personally I believe the Phoenix fist and Ginger fist should be conditioned by hitting a wall bag: First with rice, Second with Beans, Third with Sand, Fourth with Gravel, and Fifth with Steel Shots and use plently of Dit Da Jow and do Chi Kung before and after your training.

    But the dummy also assist in muscle memory and training to use of power.
    Specialty fists require a 2 pronged forging process:
    Impact training - At my stage I use my IP bag with shot and I use the hanging shot bag and I used the padded dummy and the HB.
    Structural training- simply put, push-ups on your PE fist.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Specialty fists require a 2 pronged forging process:
    Impact training - At my stage I use my IP bag with shot and I use the hanging shot bag and I used the padded dummy and the HB.
    Structural training- simply put, push-ups on your PE fist.
    Yes...Very interesting thank you for sharing...Forged those swords.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    Thoughts?

    And here's some thoughts of my own to throw out there about this: Although there are things within each section that can transfer to unarmed fighting, there is, imo, a very big number of moves in the WD that are really hidden Butterfly Sword techniques, and have little relevance to unarmed combat.
    Have you ever read The Great Karate Myth by Nathan Johnson? He has some very interesting and somewhat controversial ideas. I believe you can find a video clip on youtube about The Great Karate Myth.

  10. #25
    Never heard of him, but I'll check out youtube.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    Never heard of him, but I'll check out youtube.
    try this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsXj8...31DF61&index=3

  12. #27
    Interesting, and now I see where you were going with this. But so as to compare apples-to-apples (ie.- forms that don't use any outside apparatus, like the WD)...

    the third wing chun form, Bil Jee, also has a great many moves that were designed mainly for the Butterfly Swords, much more so than for empty hand fighting, imo. For example, mon sao (asking hands)...is really about a BS attack, and not an empty-handed attack, I believe.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    Interesting, and now I see where you were going with this. But so as to compare apples-to-apples (ie.- forms that don't use any outside apparatus, like the WD)...

    the third wing chun form, Bil Jee, also has a great many moves that were designed mainly for the Butterfly Swords, much more so than for empty hand fighting, imo. For example, mon sao (asking hands)...is really about a BS attack, and not an empty-handed attack, I believe.
    makes sense to me. i would think that martial arts training back in the days would center around weapons primarily.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    For example, mon sao (asking hands)...is really about a BS attack, and not an empty-handed attack, I believe.
    Mon sao, or 问手, is actually an empty handed technique with principles behind it.
    It is almost the same as 太极's (or 形意 correct me) 问劲.
    "In fighting, the hand you can see will not hurt you, the hand you cannot see, will hurt you." - Grandmaster Gary Lam

  15. #30
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    what came first,the chicken or the egg

    ....oh i mean,what came first the man sao or the butterflysword application. there is know telling which came first but,if i was a betting man,i'd lean more towards the weapons influencing the empty hands.before guns weapons training dominated martial arts and,were emphasized first.
    sincerly, eddie

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