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Thread: The Take It For Granted Thread

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    Never heard of him, but I'll check out youtube.
    Don't bother, anyone that has ever used weapons knows that is not the case with the bunkai of Karate katas.
    Fact is, the majority of bunkai ate VS standing grappling attacks or "typical" grab and hit attacks, which is what the karateka would be typically dealing with in those days.
    You can make a form mean anything you want, doesn't mean that was the way it was originally.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Don't bother, anyone that has ever used weapons knows that is not the case with the bunkai of Karate katas.
    Fact is, the majority of bunkai ate VS standing grappling attacks or "typical" grab and hit attacks, which is what the karateka would be typically dealing with in those days.
    You can make a form mean anything you want, doesn't mean that was the way it was originally.
    So do you believe the Third form was originally a weapons form. I also found that Bart Jam Dao makes a great Snake Hand form. If you modify your hand posistioning to Spear hand and and Knife hand techniques you got a nice open handed form. Kinda like doing snake in Wing Chun. Try the BJD form with out swords but envision your hands are the blades and attack with those instead.

    You will see what I mean?

    But of course us today will not have the hand conditioning to make it really useful.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by -木叶- View Post
    Mon sao, or 问手, is actually an empty handed technique with principles behind it.
    It is almost the same as 太极's (or 形意 correct me) 问劲.
    IMO, it's an 'idea' no different than the SNT being a 'little idea' of what WC is about.

    Two things here:
    1. Because we're a 'contact based' martial art, the Mon Sau is asking or feeling out what's out there to contact. If there is nothing there, it punches/strikes/whatever (hand lost, thrust forward).
    2. It's not limited to the hands like some people show where they walk around like a robot with their Mon Sau out. Mon Sau is about the eyes, the hands and the feet.

    Also, regarding 'hidden' BJD techniques in the dummy or the Biu Jee, I'm not buying it. The third form is for recovery. First form is the alphabet, second form the sentences and the third form the slang. If you're not facing centre, the third form shows you how to get back there as safely as possible while possibly 'breaking' some of the cardinal WC rules/theories. Also, most of the dummy (latter 3/4 of it) shows the same.

    Victor commented on the pak/da on the Dummy under the armpit being a BJD technique...I view it as recovery.

    Best,
    K
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  4. #34
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    In all actuality each empty handed form can be be used to offset your weapons. And each Weapon form can be used to offset your empty hand combat. In some arts they train weapons first. An from training weapons they use how to fight with their hands even with out the weapon. The difference is your fist,knife hand or snake hand or palm is used as the weapon oppose to Look Dim Boon or Bart Jam Dao. But of course not all of the techniques in weapons forms can be used as Snake Fist or Sun Fist. But alot of moves can.

    One can derived new forms from the weapon form if you open your mind to the possibilties.

    Then make drills, Then use it in chi sau, then use it in sparring.

    Same with the wooden man. Some use the wooden man to practice their Dragon Pole or Luk Dim Boon. Some even have a dummy for the Bart Jam Dao. It depends on your ability to make your WC come alive. It comes a point where your WC grows from practice and meditation along with fighting skilled fighters. When that time comes its not merely what your Sifu says. But what you discover. Discovery can be a marvelous thing. But it doesn't matter who is right or wrong. it just depends on if it works? If you can make your discovery work in fighting a resisting opponent. Who can say otherwise. Remember WC curriculm is the training wills. But once you learn how to ride a bike with out training wills and master the basic principals you can begin to create and freestyle. This is the reason why peoples WC morphs or alters as decades proceed. New Insight and Discoveries shape their WC into something different than what they Sifu has given them. The sifu gives you training wills. But you may not ride your bike the say way as he does. Each indiviual as their own creativity.

    Don't be bounded. WC is a system. It is not bound but alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    IMO, it's an 'idea' no different than the SNT being a 'little idea' of what WC is about.

    Two things here:
    1. Because we're a 'contact based' martial art, the Mon Sau is asking or feeling out what's out there to contact. If there is nothing there, it punches/strikes/whatever (hand lost, thrust forward).
    2. It's not limited to the hands like some people show where they walk around like a robot with their Mon Sau out. Mon Sau is about the eyes, the hands and the feet.

    Also, regarding 'hidden' BJD techniques in the dummy or the Biu Jee, I'm not buying it. The third form is for recovery. First form is the alphabet, second form the sentences and the third form the slang. If you're not facing centre, the third form shows you how to get back there as safely as possible while possibly 'breaking' some of the cardinal WC rules/theories. Also, most of the dummy (latter 3/4 of it) shows the same.

    Victor commented on the pak/da on the Dummy under the armpit being a BJD technique...I view it as recovery.

    Best,
    K
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    So do you believe the Third form was originally a weapons form. I also found that Bart Jam Dao makes a great Snake Hand form. If you modify your hand posistioning to Spear hand and and Knife hand techniques you got a nice open handed form. Kinda like doing snake in Wing Chun. Try the BJD form with out swords but envision your hands are the blades and attack with those instead.

    You will see what I mean?

    But of course us today will not have the hand conditioning to make it really useful.
    I was speaking of karate.

    BUT, in regdars to taking a armed form and making it an empty handed form:
    Lets look at the FMA, they are reknown for their stick and blade work and they base their hands on those weapons, I ask this:
    Are they reknown for their unarmed fighting?
    Nope.
    Cutting with a blade and hitting with a stick si NOT the same as striking with empty hands, it shoudl be so commons sense that its not an issue.
    Fact is that it is easier and more probably more effective taking empty hand moves and adding a blade or stick than vice-versa.

  6. #36
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    Biu Jee is for recovery - not a weapons form. It is for regaining or breaking the centerline when you are in a bad position.

    The way TWC teaches the Chum Kiu and Biu Jee sets (and ASLT) is taught is like Hung Jong. You are taught the steps and movement with the hand movement, rather than developing or shifting from the root like in the other Yip Man WCK systems. So for TWC people to consider Biu Jee a weapon set is not far off.

    Both approaches have their benefits.

  7. #37
    I agree about recovery being a big theme within bil jee. But like Robert said, in TWC (and I would argue even within VT, for example)...there are bil jee & WD moves that make more sense as BS based application than as empty hand; or at the very least, more practical as such.

    For example, there was a section that I learned waay back in the day from Moy Yat in his BS form that was a pure mon sao moving forward into the opponent's space. (And the same exact move exists within the TWC bil jee form)...Interestingly enough, when Dan Inosanto visited the Moy Yat NYC school (during the very brief time that he spent as Moy Yat's student)...

    he commented that within the concepts behind Fillipino weapons arts, this kind of move I just described (mon do) was a very hard attack to stop, precisely because the sword attack was coming from underneath, making the angle and the direction of the energy used very difficult to deal with.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 10-02-2009 at 10:21 AM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    IMO, it's an 'idea' no different than the SNT being a 'little idea' of what WC is about.

    Two things here:
    1. Because we're a 'contact based' martial art, the Mon Sau is asking or feeling out what's out there to contact. If there is nothing there, it punches/strikes/whatever (hand lost, thrust forward).
    2. It's not limited to the hands like some people show where they walk around like a robot with their Mon Sau out. Mon Sau is about the eyes, the hands and the feet.

    Also, regarding 'hidden' BJD techniques in the dummy or the Biu Jee, I'm not buying it. The third form is for recovery. First form is the alphabet, second form the sentences and the third form the slang. If you're not facing centre, the third form shows you how to get back there as safely as possible while possibly 'breaking' some of the cardinal WC rules/theories. Also, most of the dummy (latter 3/4 of it) shows the same.

    Victor commented on the pak/da on the Dummy under the armpit being a BJD technique...I view it as recovery.

    Best,
    K
    Great post!

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Don't bother, anyone that has ever used weapons knows that is not the case with the bunkai of Karate katas.
    Fact is, the majority of bunkai ate VS standing grappling attacks or "typical" grab and hit attacks, which is what the karateka would be typically dealing with in those days.
    You can make a form mean anything you want, doesn't mean that was the way it was originally.
    I just find it interesting that in the video I posted earlier, the movements/techniques of the uechi-ryu sanchin version when view from an unarmed fighting perspective doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

    When it is performed with the sai, the movements finally made sense. I think there is some truth to Nathan Johnson's ideas and should not be dismiss so lightly. Granted, we'll probably never truly know what the original purpose of this kata and others.

  10. #40
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    I know very little about Karate...So i cant comment on that...

    Yes, I see your point concerning FMA. But what about someone who has a strong foundation in empty hand combat and then learns FMA weapons. Would it be safe to say that a person with hand technique experience would be able to convert the weapons forms to empty hand forms oppose to someone who only know FMA weapons?



    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I was speaking of karate.

    BUT, in regdars to taking a armed form and making it an empty handed form:
    Lets look at the FMA, they are reknown for their stick and blade work and they base their hands on those weapons, I ask this:
    Are they reknown for their unarmed fighting?
    Nope.
    Cutting with a blade and hitting with a stick si NOT the same as striking with empty hands, it shoudl be so commons sense that its not an issue.
    Fact is that it is easier and more probably more effective taking empty hand moves and adding a blade or stick than vice-versa.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by couch View Post
    the Mon Sau is asking or feeling out what's out there to contact. If there is nothing there, it punches/strikes/whatever (hand lost, thrust forward)
    Yes, this is correct.
    "In fighting, the hand you can see will not hurt you, the hand you cannot see, will hurt you." - Grandmaster Gary Lam

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by -木叶- View Post
    Yes, this is correct.
    All techniques interelate and can be utilize in many different applications.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    All techniques interelate and can be utilize in many different applications.
    like? i would like to see YOU personally doing the techniques. if you need a digital camera im willing to start a fund to get you one.
    "Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight."-Psalms 144:1

    "I Am The Punishment Of God, If You Had Not Committed Great Sins, God Would Not Have Sent A Punishment Like Me Upon You"-Genghis Khan

    "The light of the eyes is a comet, And ones' activity is as lightning, The sword that kills the man; is the sword that saves the man"

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsu Jin Ken View Post
    like? i would like to see YOU personally doing the techniques. if you need a digital camera im willing to start a fund to get you one.
    ooh well hey...lets get that ole fund started...

    Video Camera for Yoshiyahu...

    any donations?
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

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