Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 44

Thread: The Take It For Granted Thread

  1. #1

    The Take It For Granted Thread

    ...We're going to take it for granted that if you participate in this thread, then you also endorse the following:

    1) It's important to spar on a regular basis with skilled, resisting opponents...
    2) It's important that such sparring includes frequent hard sparring - not just light sparring...
    2) It's important to spar like this against people skilled in other martial arts, not just WC...
    3) It's important that you be open minded about what strategies and techniques you use...
    4) It's important to also include sparring against skilled grappler types...
    5) It's important to also include sparring against skilled mma type fighters...

    GREAT !!!

    Now we can discuss, debate, argue, possibly even occasionally agree upon: WING CHUN !!!

    And so, if you're following the rules, there will be no need for anyone to come on here and try to play: THE WIZARD OF OZ !!!

    You know the type, he's hides behind a big curtain (ie.- you never get to see what he's all about)...and he speaks incessantly in a big roar about what you should do, what you shouldn't do, what you should think and not think, who you should respect and not respect - and most of all - never disagree with him no matter how disproved or debunked some of his "teachings" are.

    Okay, enough about this type of fellow.

    Now onto some wing chun.

    Pick a topic and state your case:

    Forms
    chi sao
    wooden dummy
    weapons
    crosstraining
    sparring
    conditioning

    etc....

  2. #2
    Okay, I'll start: let's talk about the Wooden Dummy.

    How much of the WD have you been able to actually incorporate into your fighting/sparring?

    What adjustments/modifications, if any, to the actual WD form do you make?

    If you can take moves (or a series of moves) from the WD and use them in actual application, please give some examples...

    Or is the WD just primarily a device to strengthen your limbs while simulating some WC fighting?

    Or maybe you find the whole thing basically useless. If so, please explain why?
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 09-29-2009 at 11:40 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kent, UK
    Posts
    459
    i havent learnt the form, but do get shown the odd drill here and there on the dummy.

    i did hear a nice saying from Joseph Man though, "The dummy is your friend, it should not hurt you" meaning that if you go light contact, or full contact, on the dummy if it hurts you then you are doing it wrong!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    atlanta,ga
    Posts
    303

    wooden dummy

    i think the training from the dummy gives you certain attributes,but as far as picking moves and fighting with it,i cant say i ever have. i really do love the dummy form but,all you can use are the concepts and attributes.Against a resisting opponent,there's just no time for fancy moves.i'll comment more later,i have to get my daughter to school and get to work,later eddie
    sincerly, eddie

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    53
    I haven't made it too far into the wooden dummy form. Just finished the fourth section. I personally find it very difficult to take some of those techniques and use them in sparring. I'm not sure whether you can transfer them over at all or whether I just can't figure out how do it. I'm assuming it's the fact that I just don't know how to do it.

    All that being said I think I have learned alot from it. Things like footwork and the flow from one technique to the next, hand positions and correct angles, forward force and control. All good things I would say. I think there is a great value the WD form. All the things I have listed are things that I have managed to take with me into sparring.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    My views in regards to the dummy tend not to be typical WC views, I think that we can use the dummy with a set routine but also to freestyle a bit on it, personally I have always enjoyed "fighting" the dummy and never cared much for doing a routine on it.
    I do drill my dummy pretty hard too, I find that by hitting it hard, as close to full contact as I can, I can test my structure far better.
    I also pad my dummy so I can not only drill it harder but use specialty fists like the PE fist, that is probably more from my "SPM" training than WC though.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    St.Louis Missouri
    Posts
    2,175
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    My views in regards to the dummy tend not to be typical WC views, I think that we can use the dummy with a set routine but also to freestyle a bit on it, personally I have always enjoyed "fighting" the dummy and never cared much for doing a routine on it.
    I do drill my dummy pretty hard too, I find that by hitting it hard, as close to full contact as I can, I can test my structure far better.
    I also pad my dummy so I can not only drill it harder but use specialty fists like the PE fist, that is probably more from my "SPM" training than WC though.
    What exactly is PE fist...in Wing Chun I know of

    1.Vertical Fist
    2.Phoneix Fist
    3 Ginger Fist


    So please share with what does PE fist look like are can you post a picture or link?

    I agree with sanjuro First learn the dummy form. Then train it hard using hard force, snapping power and body structure to bounce the dummy. When you can bounce a 70-80lb dummy then a person face is nothing. Also Pad the dummy so your punches and palm strikes can get harder over time. When you begin to feel like hitting the pad at full strength is nothing at all. Then remove the pad. Begin hitting it soft and over time begin to add more and more power until you can hit the wood full strength with out damaging your hand or feeling pain.

    Personally I believe one should try to hit the dummy softly and slow as well as a hard and fast. This trains two aspects of your Wing Chun which are the Yin and Yang.

    Yin training produces Percision, Muscle memory, Soft Chi and correct technique, proper structure and proper body alignment when done slow.

    Yang Training produces High Intensity fighting muscle memory, Stamina for fighting, Ability to generate power and ging into your opponent, Correct application while fighting speeds and power, Hard Chi and also how to do the moves correctly and accurately when going all out.

    One needs to do both. Both are as important.

    I suggest one does the form ten times a day. Fast & hard and Slow &soft

    After that Freestyle through out the day. Just come down and hit your dummy for five minutes before you go to work each day hard and fast. Hit like your shadow boxing. Then hit it again for about 20 minutes when you get home before you do your form. Hit that dummy again for 5 to 10 minutes before you go to bed or after dinner. An you will begin to realize applications from the dummy.

    The Mok Yan Jong has many applications. If you doubt it check out the Yip Man book on 116 Wing Tsum Wooden Dummy Techniques. They illustrate many applications at the back of the book. Also take indiviual sequences from the dummy. Asked your Sifu how to drill them with a partner. Then begin to unlock its secrets and develop correct timing and proper applications. Once you have drilled it with a partner at no more than medium force or soft force. Drill it on dummy harder. You will slowly be redefining your WC. Those with conditioning are far more formidable then those with out it. So the dummy is a form of ironing your weapons.

    Also sometimes at work when your bored or on break go ahead and practice the Wooden dummy form in the air. After about a year of practicing in the air you should be able to freestyle in air. Now your really shadow boxing. Remember the techniques done in each form will not be done in real time verbatim. No one is going to allow you to complete a technique in the street. You may get the High Low Gan sau off but don't Expect to follow up with Kwun sau in real life. Some techniques have to be tweaked or modified so they fit the situtation. Maybe your defending against a kick, Attacking, Controlling, or just using an entry technique. Your purpose will dictate how you modify the techniques from the form. Remember the forms are a Encylopedia of techniques. You have to take those techniques and make sentences on your own. Once you learn your vocabulary its up to you to make it work. You never write a paper with every word in alphabetical order. So don't expect to fight with the form in that same order.
    Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 09-30-2009 at 08:06 AM.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    PE fist = Phoenix-eye fist.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    53
    1.Vertical Fist
    2.Phoneix Fist
    3 Ginger Fist

    I haven't heard of these at all. What do these punches look like? Forgive my lack of knowledge.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Quote Originally Posted by kungfublow View Post
    1.Vertical Fist
    2.Phoneix Fist
    3 Ginger Fist

    I haven't heard of these at all. What do these punches look like? Forgive my lack of knowledge.
    1: Fist on the vertical plane, thumb side up.

    2.Fist with the index finger knuckle protruding

    3. Sometimes called a "leopard" or "panther" fist, strike with the knuckles of the fist in a "half-open" formation.

    Although in SPM, for example, the ginger fist is done diferently.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    53
    Hey thanks! I guess I did know what those were I just never heard my sifu call them that. He normally just shows us and every now and again leaves the names out.

    Thanks for the info!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    St.Louis Missouri
    Posts
    2,175
    Quote Originally Posted by kungfublow View Post
    1.Vertical Fist
    2.Phoneix Fist
    3 Ginger Fist

    I haven't heard of these at all. What do these punches look like? Forgive my lack of knowledge.
    It appears the Sanjuro has some great pictures...I will also provide some as well...But since you have never heard of this punches...let me share some Wing Chun sources with you...

    http://books.google.com/books?id=t36...20fist&f=false


    http://books.google.com/books?id=BUH...20fist&f=false







    Of course the Verticle Fist or Sun Fist is just the way you do your chain punches in Wing chun. The horizotal fist is like jab in boxing where the chain punches are done vertically.

    I realize not all WC lineages teach everything. But these fist are apart of mainland Wing Chun as well.

    Great feedback Sanjuro. Also loved what you said about the Mok Yan Jong needing to be done with force as well as freestyle....
    Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 09-30-2009 at 09:26 AM.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    53
    That's all great info thanks. It's nice to have some other sources to consult over and above my sifu.

    I also like what you said about using the dummy with both soft force and full force. I would think that would make you more well rounded. I try to do that while I practice but sadly I don't have a dummy at home yet. So my time is limited.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    My views in regards to the dummy tend not to be typical WC views, I think that we can use the dummy with a set routine but also to freestyle a bit on it, personally I have always enjoyed "fighting" the dummy and never cared much for doing a routine on it.
    I do drill my dummy pretty hard too, I find that by hitting it hard, as close to full contact as I can, I can test my structure far better.
    I also pad my dummy so I can not only drill it harder but use specialty fists like the PE fist, that is probably more from my "SPM" training than WC though.
    I won't get into actually using moves (or sets of moves) from the WD in actual application in this post, other than to say that, yes, there are moves form each section that are fight applicable, imo...and are taught with that in mind by William Cheung.

    But for now I want to focus on the rest of sanjuro's post: yeah, after doing the set routine (or sometimes even right in the middle of it)...freestyling on it is not only good - but it's an absolute must, imo.

    Because you have to "make it yours", like everything else in WC, or any martial art for that matter. And the more you freestyle (and especially after you've come to understand the meaning of the set routine)...the better you get. Because you start doing things naturally and unconsciously - as this has to be the ultimate goal. One needs to get familiar with the "training/teaching" so intimately that you can perform under fire without thinking much about what you'll do next. It just comes. Including what may not be in the training/teaching/form.

    And yeah, I padded my WD some years ago and go full blast power without fear of injuring my hands/elbows, and it has dramatically increased the time I became willing to spend on the WD, since the arms and leg serve to make full blast punching, kicking, knees, elbows, palm strikes, etc. more disciplined - as just going all out full abandon, while it might be good against a heavy bag, for example (which I also use at my school very frequently)...

    can be a reckless act in actual sparring/fighting...so having to work your way around the WD arms/legs while still striking very hard adds a lot to the game.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 09-30-2009 at 11:12 AM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,519
    I learned the WD form a long time ago, but even back then my older brother, one of them, taught me to fight the wooden man free style. I started out by doing SLT on the dummy. Then much later I started learning the dummy form. We would jump on it and bang the tar out of it. I would use an enter technique and start fighting, using different techniques as I went along. I think it makes for a more fluid transition from one move to the next doing that, plus it seems to have opened my options to meet different situations more. Does that even make sense?
    I never use anything more than the verticle fist, palm, chop, and the bill gee finger stabs for hand techniques. Of course there is the elbow, knee and foot, but you can't make a fist with them. I never did much as far as altering the fist. Like the knuckle jabs and such. Phenix eye? I think the dummy offers you the oppertunity to go all out with some of your techniques without worrying about hurting someone in the process, but I also feel that 2 man drills are the only real way to get it down to a science. Once your drills have given you the proper angles and technique, you can then go all out on the dummy. Something that you can not really do with your training partner. I also pad the dummy. No sense in making clubs out of your hands. Today, if I do the dummy, I will do it free style.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •