Mixed Martial Arts - The Unstoppable Historical Force

[Ultimatewingchun]

We can discuss it here if you want.

[goju]

i guess we could start on the clinch

obviously wouldnt the best way to deal with it would be to intercept the technique before it is locked in and is that not the principle of alot of bridge work in southern kung fu?

i know you studied wc and would that not be taught(and feel free to correct me victor or any other well experienced wc guys) in the style as the opponent attempts to reach out you could intercept him with strikes or redirect his grab at your neck?

also could you not tie him up yourself and throw him/ trip etc etc if he attempts a clinch? as ive heard (and feel free to correct me if im wrong) basically all chinese arts have throwing techniques in them( or are supposed to) and ive heard again that wc does as well

even in mma matches for example ive seen the most basic methods to counter a clinch such as an uppercut, the person getting clinched getting the first knee off and breaking the hold or changing level and taking the attacker down or throwing him

now obviously basic attacks like the knee, uppercut etc etc are in the majority of kung fu styles as well so why could those not be used fight with a attempted clinch?

[goju]

i do think that most of the techniques could have been forgotten or for that matter or never taught

this kind of goes back to my discussion with sanjuro about alot of tkd being hidden and watered down by koreans when they taught outside of korea


also i recall leung shum commenting that it was common for masters to hide parts of their system from their students. then when their students began teaching they in turn would hide parts of the style from their students

so we have a line of kung fu being more and more *******ized as it moved along the generations

[Frost]

I can show you a few Hung Kuen moves that work VS the MT clinch, but that is because I have done BOTH MT AND Hung Kuen.

And that’s my point (and this is not aimed at you as I am sure you get this) there may be moves that may work against the clinch in the traditional arts, but since the clinch was not something they needed to defend against these moves have to be adapted for the environment we are now in.

Which usually means training in the arts and against the attacks you are most likely to face these days and then adapting your traditional arts accordingly, just as Victor is doing. And in the process you will no doubt add some elements that do not exist in your art or which are done better than how your art might deal with it. Using your example I am sure there are some nice hung kuen moves to be used in the clinch (I like to use some dragon hitting here as well) but I am also equally sure the majority of the stuff you do in the MT clinch is MT strikes and counters with these extra bits added… am I correct?

[uki]

clinch counters = poking fingers into soft spots while biting anything within range.

[Frost]

i guess we could start on the clinch

obviously wouldnt the best way to deal with it would be to intercept the technique before it is locked in and is that not the principle of alot of bridge work in southern kung fu?

i know you studied wc and would that not be taught(and feel free to correct me victor or any other well experienced wc guys) in the style as the opponent attempts to reach out you could intercept him with strikes or redirect his grab at your neck?

also could you not tie him up yourself and throw him/ trip etc etc if he attempts a clinch? as ive heard (and feel free to correct me if im wrong) basically all chinese arts have throwing techniques in them( or are supposed to) and ive heard again that wc does as well

even in mma matches for example ive seen the most basic methods to counter a clinch such as an uppercut, the person getting clinched getting the first knee off and breaking the hold or changing level and taking the attacker down or throwing him

now obviously basic attacks like the knee, uppercut etc etc are in the majority of kung fu styles as well so why could those not be used fight with a attempted clinch?

All very good points and well thought out however these are general ways to counter any grab: stop it before it happens, hit him on the way in, intercept before it is locked in etc. , (and personally I think this is better than trying to tie him up and tripping throwing him. There are throws and trips in Chinese martial arts, but I would hazard a guess that the guy who is actively seeking the clinch probably drills throws and strikes from there more than anyone else so it is best to intercept strike and move.)

However my point is that is this stuff actually drilled against the right structure for today environment… is it drilled against someone actively seeking the plum, or against someone who has locked the clinch in and is moving you around and throwing knees or against someone who is locking in a body lock before throwing you or is it simply drilled against structures like chi sao, forearm contact drills and basic hand on the neck defence drills?

In the clinch (if you can’t use the tactics you talked about plus lateral movement and straight power hitting to keep out of the clinch) then you need to maintain your base which is very hard against someone good at clinching: no point throwing knees or uppercuts or seeking the take down if he has control of your balance. Then you need to be able to counter or escape, and I have not seen counters and escapes in the Chinese arts I have studied, nor more importantly have I seen it drilled in the structures and for the situations we have now in the 21st century.

What I mean was that I have been shown grab defences, both against body locks, neck grabs wrist holds etc, but I was never shown them against a proper clinch, nor allowed to spar out of the clinch for round after round to see what worked for me and what did not. In sparring we were reset if it reached clinch range, or limited to pinning/controlling the arms.

maybe this type of sparing and structure was never needed back then in their cultures, (or it has been lost due to secrecy), but it is needed now, you are more likely to meet someone on the street who has seen a bit of MAA and tries to clinch and knee than you will someone throwing chain punches etc.

The only Chinese art I know that does spar over and over in the clinch is the Shuai Jiao, guys and they tell endless stories about destroying other so called deadly Chinese masters in the clinch and with throws

[sanjuro_ronin]

And that’s my point (and this is not aimed at you as I am sure you get this) there may be moves that may work against the clinch in the traditional arts, but since the clinch was not something they needed to defend against these moves have to be adapted for the environment we are now in.

Which usually means training in the arts and against the attacks you are most likely to face these days and then adapting your traditional arts accordingly, just as Victor is doing. And in the process you will no doubt add some elements that do not exist in your art or which are done better than how your art might deal with it. Using your example I am sure there are some nice hung kuen moves to be used in the clinch (I like to use some dragon hitting here as well) but I am also equally sure the majority of the stuff you do in the MT clinch is MT strikes and counters with these extra bits added… am I correct?

Having trained in various systems and competed in various systems I have found that my body will "act" accordingly to whatever "attack" is applied, what I mean is:
If I get grabbed like I get grabbed in Judo I will apply Judo, if I get clinched in a "MT fashion" I will react MT-like.

[goju]

oh i know the last nhb ufc type competion china had in the 30's a shuai jiao stylist won the whole thing against a wide variety of kung fu stylists

hell in reality the average gung fu school or the majority of tma schools for that matter wont drill realistic techniques and counters for them much less the clinch as their general market is full of people who just are interested in tinkering with kung fu as ahobby not aprticularly learning to fight.

however as i noted the chinese came into conflict with the mongols numerous times

and of course as any one knows the mongols were were superb grapplers and would use the clinch and underhooks if a fight came down hand to hand on the battle field so logically the chinese would have to devise methods to counter these attacks


perhaps there was more shuai jiao in kung fu back then and more counters for clinching and body locks but as the need for them diminished they began being taught less and less


or as i mentioned maybe they arent taught

i recall reading a william cheung article where he mentioned a sparring match between i believe leung sheung and yip man and from the description of the fight yip man just grabbed and threw sheung all over the room.

from the description it almost sounded like shaui jiao stylist in action and it goes back to what im saying about there beinga lot of techniques that are there they just are not shown

if im correct i believe the majority of chinese arts are supposed to include punching kicking locking and throwing but it seems the emphasis is mainly just placed on striking these days and the other two are forgotten or rarely practiced

[Lucas]

Not only that but in some cases even the striking isn't trained in a realistic manner to produce even adequate let alone outstanding results.

[uki]

Not only that but in some cases even the striking isn't trained in a realistic manner to produce even adequate let alone outstanding results.

and now add gloves to the whole sha-bang...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

and now add gloves to the whole sha-bang...

Shin guards, mouthpiece, and head gear. My god, Uki, don't forget those either

[Frost]

Shin guards, mouthpiece, and head gear. My god, Uki, don't forget those either

the scary thing is you are joking... he is not

[uki]

the scary thing is you are joking... he is not

how do you know for sure?? perhaps i just have a different sense of humor than you...

[lkfmdc]

The only Chinese art I know that does spar over and over in the clinch is the Shuai Jiao guys, and they tell endless stories about destroying other so called deadly Chinese masters in the clinch and with throws

Chang Tung Sheng himself said in a newspaper article in taiwan that he had fought all over China, had never met anyone with "magic powers" and that he'd still (he was already in his 60's) take the challenge of any of those sorts of guys. He also said, to hit him you had to be close enough for him to grab you, and if he grabbed you, he'd hurt you

Strangely, no one took him up on his challenge in all those years

[uki]

Strangely, no one took him up on his challenge in all those years.

imagine that... other people that actually don't give a sh!t either.