martial ARTIST vs MARTIAL artist

[ChinaBoxer]

Do we as martial artists focus to much on the "martial" side of the coin and not the "artist" side?

i mean, think about it, we all train very hard and put in alot of effort, time and money for years to improve our fighting skills. but out of the millions of martial artists how many actually have to use it to defend their lives in the street or the life of someone else? i'm not talking about "defending your ego" fights over spilled beer. i'm talking about someone ready to kill you, literally. maybe less than 1% of all martial artists in the world will ever have to face that situation.

so why do we train so hard and spend so much money for? this is a question i keep asking myself. and i think it's an important one.

so many people think that if you compete in the ring and do tons of sparring, you are "tough". but you wanna know who IMO are tougher? the father trying to raise a good family in a tough economy, or the single mother that has to work three jobs to support her children. now these guys are tough! why do i say this? because ultimately, it's "life" that will be our ultimate arena, it's "ourselves" that will be our greatest opponent.

and that's why i personally train so hard and spend lots of money on instruction and have been doing it for so long. to learn "how" to get through life without meeting force with force. so that when life comes at you hard, you have the training to get through it and continue on the journey.

this leads me to another question, why is it that every martial arts school has a "written" guide to the "martial" side of progressing from basic to high level or white belt to black belt as an example, but nobody has a "written" guide for the "artist" side? IMO this has to do with focusing too much on "technique" and the "if you do this, then i do that" mentality, which IMO is detrimental to a martial artist. but if you focus on the "concepts" and the "why" each and every movement works, then you are teaching yourself the "guide" to getting through life, such as "go straight", if you meet an obstacle don't meet it with force, go around it but always go straight, stay flexible but always go straight, this leads to traveling far on your journey.

i strive every day to be a "martial ARTIST" and not a "MARTIAL artist", because eventually when all of us get to the "top of the mountain", the view is the same for everyone.

take care and peace!

Jin

[dirtyrat]

Well said, Jin

[AdrianK]

I agree that many people focus too much on the Martial side.

Now, martial arts were created for war, for killing. What I mean isn't that we *shouldnt* focus on the martial side, or that its not for the most part, the essence of many arts. But more that I've seen plenty of people training day in and day out simply because they genuinely believe that they're going to become some kind of super hero, soldier, or renowned street fighter.

Many people live in that delusion and use martial arts simply to pump up their ego, to give validation to what they probably already believed in the first place, that they're unbeatable street fighters who need to protect their honor and safeguard the weak or any variation of such craziness.

Martial ARTIST or MARTIAL Artist, I believe there is no either or. You train martial arts to protect something - Yourself, your family, etc, and in turn, your training develops you as a person, inside and out.

Of course, plenty of people forsake the latter portion. And plenty of people forsake the former portion. The answer lies somewhere in the middle.

For myself, anyways.

Keep in mind that you'll never know when war will break out, or when you might have to use your skills to protect yourself in your home. The optimal weapons wouldn't be your hands or feet, but firearms and such.. of course, MARTIAL arts is a great way to not only support real war skills in the event your first(firearms) and secondary(knives, bats, etc.) defenses are compromised, but they also offer plenty of skills you'd use in combat with those, such as breathing, maintaining your composure, strategy, and the physical stamina you need in those situations.

[Wayfaring]

I think the words "martial artist" are an oxymoron. You wind up with people that accomplish neither. Too "artsy" to fight effectively, and too "meatheaded" to see beauty in anything.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that before one can even contemplate the artist part of MA, one most first become proficient in the MARTIAL part.

[bennyvt]

martial arts is a load of crap. Wsl used to say vt is a martial science. Art is subjective, it depends on peoples prespective i like stuff but you don't. Fighting is not subjective, if both people are equal the better style wins. Not the one i like better.

[sanjuro_ronin]

martial arts is a load of crap. Wsl used to say vt is a martial science. Art is subjective, it depends on peoples prespective i like stuff but you don't. Fighting is not subjective, if both people are equal the better style wins. Not the one i like better.

I think that is the whole point of Martial ART, the art part IS subjective, not the martial though.
At least it shouldn't be.
What we view as artistic is personal, that part of MA should be just that, a personal expression of the martial.
A MA shoudl be someone that has his/her personal expression (art) of fighting (martial).
The term science tends to denote a certain set of rules set in stone, there isn't much "personal experssion" in science, just "cold hard facts", which I think is GREAT at the initial stages of combat training.
After that Martial science should change to martial art.

[bennyvt]

the rules are who wins is normally the better. Does it pass the test? This is the important thing. You can express yourself but if you suck, you just suck. You can test your style or ability, how do you test art. Vt is not an art, just a set of tools that you use. Difference between an artist designing a house and an architect. One uses a set of rules and the house stays up. One makes it look really nice and it collapses.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the rules are who wins is normally the better. Does it pass the test? This is the important thing. You can express yourself but if you suck, you just suck. You can test your style or ability, how do you test art. Vt is not an art, just a set of tools that you use. Difference between an artist designing a house and an architect. One uses a set of rules and the house stays up. One makes it look really nice and it collapses.

I don't think I got my point across...
To use your analogy:
A true MA would start off as an architect before he becomes an artist.

[uki]

a bit of creativity always paves the way to destruction...

[bennyvt]

yeh i get it and sort of agree. Its just that art is anything and every thing, it can be made by man or a sun rise depending on the individual. It can mean many things to different people. Expressionists can't show how they are better then the art new voue (sp?) guys.

[chusauli]

Some of us are "MARTIAL ARTISTS" as opposed to "MARTIAL artists" or "martial ARTISTS". The first one denotes a balance and respect for martial skills as well as culture, life, health, the second is the fighter, but can also be the extreme meathead, the third is the Wushu dancer. Yes, WCK dudes, you know what you are...

Martial arts is not "Wu Yi" in Chinese; so WSL was wrong. We call it "Wu Shu/Mo Shut", in which "Wu/Mo" is "to stop conflict", and "Shu/Shut" is "Science", "the study of" or loosely, "art".

I think sometimes things are confused when it comes to some of WSL's translations...they, get a little too macho... just like his statement "There is no Qi" - which is correct - you don't win with Qi...but he was an exponent of Chinese medicine and knew we are speaking metaphorically for the phonemenom of the body's actions.

Please don't get me wrong...I certainly respected Si Bak WSL, just a lot of his things were taken out of context.

[m1k3]

ChinaBoxer, interesting post and well as the replies from everyone so far. My take on this is somewhat different from any I have read so far. Martial Arts for me are not so much about martial or arts but is more about fulfilling something that is missing for me in modern society. Its about self discipline and having an arena in which to test ones self. It is a chance to return to the primitive and to get in touch with your inner hunter or warrior. To sweat, to earn the respect of your peers, to become part of a pack but in a constructive manner. It is a chance to exorcise many of the demons that build up in a modern polite society where physical struggle is frowned upon. It is a chance to get in touch with that part of yourself which essential for survival for millions of years but is now relegated to the background.

Hope this makes sense.

[dirtyrat]

Most martial arts teaches martial skills that are irrelevant and obsolete for today's needs. No one needs to learn sword or staff/spear skills.

Even certain unarmed fighting skills taught today that were relevant in the past but are no longer applicable today. Some kung fu teachers said that most kung fu styles were designed to fight against other kung fu systems. So it had to be modified a bit to be useful against say, muay thai.

If people are really serious about the martial side, then the focus should be place on developing skills that fits modern needs for self-defense. Like learning how to use a gun. Knife and club skills are still relevant. Grappling is always useful. Most classes in many schools don't even touch the subject.

If you're drawn to a martial art that does not address today self-defense needs, than why study it? martial vs art.

[chusauli]

That's a strictly practical point of view. Alll arts inherently have their use, even some of it will be practiced for aesthetics and enjoyment. All have their uses in some way. Even so called posturing in Karate or beautiful poses in Chinese martial arts have some situational application...as a MARTIAL ARTIST, you should look for it.