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Thread: Shaolin Pao Quan - what a mess

  1. #1
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    Shaolin Pao Quan - what a mess

    Well, Shaolin Pao Quan is another group of sets that are really mixed up as far as routines go.

    Originally, Shaolin Quan was called Shaolin Chui, as in Hammer strikes.
    There are reports that the early Shaolin material that was presented in an exhibition for the newly installed Tang Emperor consisted of some Rou Quan and Pao Chui (Soft Boxing and Cannon Hammer strikes). The Rou Quan material came from the nei gong routines of the elder Shaolin monks; the Pao Chui material came from the military advisers that were influencing Shaolin martial arts at the time.

    More than likely this Pao Chui material came from the Da Hong Quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist) that was popular along the Yellow River Basin and practiced by the Sui and Tang military.

    During the later 1400s of the Ming Dynasty, thanks to Li Sou, Bai Yufeng, and Jue Yuan, Shaolin martial arts incorporated the Da Hong Quan style that these people have imported from far western China (Shaanxi and Gansu Shanxi).
    Originally part of this Hong Quan system included a series of sets called Pao Chui.

    During the Qing Dynasty, the Pao Chui material became practiced separately from the Hong Quan material and they started mixing in other stuff into the movements of these sets. Eventually they became their own sub-style known as Shaolin Pao Quan.
    (this material had a large influence on Chen family Taiji Quan's Pao Chui sets, as well as the Pao Chui sets from the neighboring Chang Family Nei Jia Quan style).
    (also, the style of Tong Bei Quan was developed from out of this Hong Quan and Pao Quan material, along with Taizu Chang Quan.)

    Anyways, no two people seem to be doing their Shaolin Pao Quan sets that same way. No two schools or lineages neither. There seems to be great divergence. Researchers say this could be because the material separated a long time ago and different branches of practitioners did not communicate with each other or simply that hardly anyone had learned or remembered the full sets and they started changing them or adding in other material to supplement what was lost.

    One thing that should be seen in Pao Quan / Pao Chui sets is, because of the Li Sou/ Bai Yufeng / Jue Yuan connection, some postures and movements overlapping with Shaolin Luohan Quan and also Shaolin Xiao and Da Hong Quan.

    So, here again, I am going to present whatever videos are easily available on the internet of these sets and some commentary.
    Anyone who has more information about the sets, their history, and so on, please let us know, thanks.
    Same as how we all did the Luohan Quan, Rou Quan, and other thread, thanks!

    The Shaolin Encyclopedia shows these Pao Quan sets:
    1- Shaolin Pao Quan (55 postures)
    2- Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu (24 postures)
    3 - Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan Er Lu (29 postures)
    4 - Shaolin Da Pao Chui (38 postures) - supposed was influenced by Emei Pao Chui style (does look very similar to Emei San Huang Pao Chui - Three Emperor Cannnon Hammers)

    The 5 volume / revised 2 volume Dengfeng Tagou school books show two Pao Quan sets.
    1 - Shaolin Xiao Pao quan (112 postures), which is the same as #1 above Shaolin Pao Quan, except it has a much longer ending section.
    2 - Shaolin Da Pao Quan (31 postures)

    In the VCDs released by Liu Zhenhai, he shows three Pao Quan sets that look nothing like the Xiao Pao Quan and Da Pao Quan shown in the Tagou school's books, which are the Eagle Claw Pao Quan, the Zhuo Shou Pao Quan, and a different Xiao Pao Quan.
    He also has three VCDs of a Pao Quan Yi lu, Er Lu, and San Lu.

    Shi deyang also does a very short Xiao Pao Chui set that looks pretty much like Da Pao Quan under closer examination. It is not the same as the Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu or Er Lus ets shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.

    videos:

    Shaolin Pao Quan from Shaolin Encyclopedia, also known as Xiao Pao Quan in Tagou books:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEOuTptAkJg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivbC4eKqz7o
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lev-mkcR4s (as done by Liu Jun Hai himself)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5JATHlmpEc (here it is called Lao Pao Chui - Old Cannon Hammers)

    interesting version:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPA7I-xlexk

    Pao Quan Yi Lu set from Liu Zhenhai, IDENTICAL to Da Pao Quan set in the Tagou books:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VWQ6SfiwFw

    Pao Quan Er Lu set from Liu Zhenhai (pretty much same as Tagou's Xiao Pao Quan first section, from above):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgP2UqmLwpA

    Pao Quan San Lu set from Liu Zhenhai (roughly same as second section of Tagou's Xiao Pao Quan):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN5xs4UT79c

    Shaolin Ti Shou Pao Quan (提手炮拳 - Lifting hand cannon fist) set from Liu Zhenhai:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvstk4Z9YaM

    Shaolin Eagle Claw Pao Quan set from Liu Zhenhai:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eEUjrwC7Ac

    Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan set from Liu Zhenhai:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBe2lUtIOgQ

    Shi Deyang's Xiao Pao Chui (which is basically Tagou's short Da Pao Quan set):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmn5x3fYVuo

    Shaolin Pao Quan set (same as in Abbot Shi Yongxin's book), here called Da Pao Quan, first half of set, the rest is cut off:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNK0ARYRwT8

    Pao Quan set that is very similar to what is called Xiao Pao Quan in the Shaolin Encyclopedia (but not the same as the Xiao Pao Quan of the Tagou books):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFInayzqygI

    Other:

    Pao Quan set from the style of Zhong Hua Si Mian Ba Fang Tong Bei Quan:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWqhMUh47vE

    Shaanxi Hong (red) Quan - Pao Chui [陕西红拳 - 炮锤]:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC1xArKobE0

    Northern long fist pao quan from Shandong area jia men chang quan (islamic long fist):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9P60vuB86o
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMZN7q (San Lu Pao Quan)

    I will add more as I find them. Feel free to direct me to more for this list. thanks
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-19-2009 at 07:32 PM. Reason: more video links added, typos fixed

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    @Sal

    You've mixed up the names a little.

    THe book from Tagou will be by 'Liu Hai Chao' not by Liu Zhen Hai. Similar names I know. Liu hai chao is the first son of liu bao shan, headmaster and founder of Tagou. He speaks good english, he wrote Tagous books. Liu hai chao does not have kung fu ability himself but he is a scholar of kung fu.

    LiuZhenHai is someone else. COmes from a Dengfeng martial arts family and was a student of Degen Da shi. Liu Zhen hai is a great master and has perhaps the largest repertoire of forms of anyone ever.

    This explains why their sets are different.
    Thanks, I made the corrections to the text.


    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    @PAO quan. Shaolin has many sets called Pao quan. The eagle claw pao quan is from LiuZhenHais lineage, that is probably a performance from his son. Many many styles use a form called pao quan. The pao quan in DengFeng is generaly Da pao quan. This form is rather short and insignificant. The Pao quan in Tagous books is very long, I have no idea where this comes from...

    Generally what is considered as real Pao Chui is the form from WuShanLin's Lineage. This is the one with all the hammers and lots of gong bu xie xings. Usually when we talk about Pao quan we are referring to this form. The vast majority of this form now practiced in Dengfeng comes from WuShanLin. It is remarkable how much it has changed in the hands of each school.

    WuShanLin's lineage is survived now by WuNanFang and SHi De Jian (who is very famous now). WuShanLin died in 1970 and most of the pao quan surviving now is 3rd hand from him at best. WuShanLin was one of Degen Da Shis Masters. He is generally considered as having the best shaolin of the last 100 years. I am very lucky in that my master SHi Yong Wen actually trained with Wushanlin himself back in 1968 and learned Pao Quan, XinYiBa and Shi Ba Dian Mei Qi Gun. However he considers all these forms as shaolins secrets and does not teach them. I have been lucky enough to see his Pao quan however. It is very similar to those I learned before.

    This form is actually two forms put together to form one. As with many shaolin sets there is also a 3rd set. I have only seen a video of this. As to the extra sets by Liu Zhen Hai they are a different pao quan, shaolin has many (the first set he does is the same however). The pao quan we are referring to was returned to shaolin by Wushanlin.

    On an interesting note Pao quan follows the symmetry of xiao hong quan closely, as if it were created with xiao hong quan as a template. You will have to practice both a lot to see what I mean.

    This set of Pao quan is, in my humble opinion, the quintessence of shaolin quan. If you are confused by the myriad forms of Pao quan, forget them all and highlight only this one.

    If no one has heard of him It is worth looking up the name Wu shan lin (sometimes wu san lin).
    Yes, I agree, my research has shown that Xiao Hong Quan and Pao Quan come from the same original system. It is very clear when you learn both and practice the movements.

    Do you know of a good video of this definitive Pao Quan so we can show the other people reading this?

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    the last shifu in the clip seems to be doing a shaolin tantui form. before i studied a 12 road tan tui which came from the shi suxi linage and it has some lines identical to these.
    however the first shifu performs parts of the pao quan I have seen before. not to discredit anyone but are you sure this is from wu san lin as I have also seen their linage do a different version of this (pao quan). If i can find it again i will post it.

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    Abbot Shi Yong Xin's new book on Pao Quan shows a form I have never seen before.
    it's very different from what is shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia and Tagou books as Pao Quan.

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    where are these new books on the old forms available from? i have heard of them being in the works for a while but havnt come across one yet. sal do you have a copy of it or similar? are they worth buying?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wuseng33 View Post
    where are these new books on the old forms available from? i have heard of them being in the works for a while but havnt come across one yet. sal do you have a copy of it or similar? are they worth buying?
    I'd say the only thing worth buying in the last 5 years are Abbot Shi Yong Xin's books on the Shaolin routines.

    I have gotten all of mine (there are I think 10 of them out so far) from www.frelax.com, sometimes Amazon.com has some of them.
    You can get them from most Chinese book selling websites, if you know Chinese.

    They are yellow.

    Check the end area of the Luohan Quan thread, I give a link to all his books on frelax.com, you can order from them in english, and they are very fast with delivery, and they give free delivery too!

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    who is the shifu actualy doing this pao quan? i have seen this version on youtube however it is missing a lot of moves I think? correct me if im wrong? the wu nan fang version is also slow and precise like this however as you said the mechanics are different. it may be in this site although i dont have time to look at the moment.
    http://www.chanwuyi.com
    i think it was one of his students doing it. I have also seen some quick village versions similar to the one you posted although containing a lot more moves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    @Wuseng33

    I don't know the guy doing this one. It says his name in the vid, but I don't know his lineage or where he teaches.

    No, this is the standard for the form. It is only 2/3 sections, but to be fair I have only seen the 3rd section performed by one person, once. Most of the time it is practiced like this.

    I have a video of Wunanfang doing pao quan. His 'shen fa' (body mechanics) are even more exagerrated than Dejian. What i mean is none of the stances are clear, his entire body moves in a strange almost undular way which is not really characteristic of Shaolinquan. The website you quoted 'chanwuyi' should be correct. He is president of Chanwuyi I think.

    Wunanfang and Shidejian do the same length pao quan as above, the only major difference is the 'hold the tigers head' stance. Wunanfang and Shidejian use a slight variation on the stance.
    Far as I know, the reason is because they have incorporated Chen Taiji SMALL Frame into the movements. Plus, the movements from Xinyi Ba.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    @Wuseng33

    I don't know the guy doing this one. It says his name in the vid, but I don't know his lineage or where he teaches.

    No, this is the standard for the form. It is only 2/3 sections, but to be fair I have only seen the 3rd section performed by one person, once. Most of the time it is practiced like this.
    The remaining third section is shown in the new revised Tagou two volume series. Looks to be the complete 3 section 112 movements Pao Quan set (which is called Xiao Pao Quan in the book). Xiao for small movements, not meaning "short set"; likewise the Da Pao Quan is very short, but it is large movements. Like how Chen TJQ has a large frame and a Small frame version of the same sets.

    Also, Liu Zhenhai teaches all three sections in his VCDs.

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    @sal

    Now I think about it yeah, tagous book does show the complete form, your right.

    The ones by liu Zhen Hai are different though. His yi lu is the one we are referring to but er lo and san lo are a different pao quan.

    As to the xiao in xiao pao quan I think it is a recent addition. All the old schools just refer to it as just Pao quan. During the 80s since many of the best masters were dead shaolin absorbed a lot of dengfeng forms into its curriculum. Often forms from dengfeng were called Da (greater area) and the original shaolin temple forms xiao. This is the case for pao quan, tong bi quan and others, before they were just referred to as pao quan, or tong bi quan. For some forms (like Xiao and Da hong quan of course) it has more specific meaning and has been this way a long time. Not to say the Da xiao nomenclature is modern, it appears in all styles for a long time, but it doesn't apply to forms like the current Da xiao pao quan as these two forms are unrelated. just as Da xiao tongbi are unrelated (at least unrelated for a long long time).

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    i always liked this performance. filmed from the rear:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g4vZnGwAac

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    @sal

    Now I think about it yeah, tagous book does show the complete form, your right.

    The ones by liu Zhen Hai are different though. His yi lu is the one we are referring to but er lo and san lo are a different pao quan.

    As to the xiao in xiao pao quan I think it is a recent addition. All the old schools just refer to it as just Pao quan. During the 80s since many of the best masters were dead shaolin absorbed a lot of dengfeng forms into its curriculum. Often forms from dengfeng were called Da (greater area) and the original shaolin temple forms xiao. This is the case for pao quan, tong bi quan and others, before they were just referred to as pao quan, or tong bi quan. For some forms (like Xiao and Da hong quan of course) it has more specific meaning and has been this way a long time. Not to say the Da xiao nomenclature is modern, it appears in all styles for a long time, but it doesn't apply to forms like the current Da xiao pao quan as these two forms are unrelated. just as Da xiao tongbi are unrelated (at least unrelated for a long long time).
    I just posted on YouTube (sorry you can't see it in China) the three Pao Quan sets of Liu Zhenhai.

    I cross checked his three routines with every resource I have.

    His Pao Quan Yi Lu set is IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY to the Da Pao Quan set in the Tagou books. No changes whatsoever.

    His Er Lu and San Lu are abbreviated versions of Tagou's Xiao Pao Quan set.
    Looks to be Er Lu is most of the first half, with the beginning missing.
    San Lu is most of the second half, with the ending missing.

    One mystery solved, almost.

    Now, what I am wondering is:

    1- where do the Xiao Pao Quan Yi lu and Er Lu sets come from that are shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia - which are different from all these sets.

    2 - what the heck is the Xiao Pao Quan that Shi Deyang is showing?

    3 - Da Pao Chui shown in Shaolin Encyclopedia appears to be very closely connected to San Huang Pao Chui (3 Emperor) from Emei, Sichuan. Same intro salute, to give a clue, as well as many similar postures and movements. Wonder which came first?

    4 - What is this Pao Quan set shown in Shi Yongxin's new book? It looks to be ancient, not modern at all. It is short, 23 postures (with 52 movements).

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    @sal.

    Its been a while since I saw the LiuZhenHai videos....

    I seem to remember there being a set with lots of xu bu bai fo, rest stance with prayer hands. This is from a different pao quan. Perhaps he has even more than 3 (he has a lot of stuff). I'll take your word on that, I'll try to watch them again soon.

    Ok, so Liu zhen hai is simply the full Pao quan that we are aware of, Tagous books are a good frame of reference. There are always small inconsistencies between forms, SO lets say with Tagou as reference Liuzhen hai does the full Xiao and Da pao quan.

    I don't have access to my encyclopedia, but I do remember looking at the Pao quan in it before and being bewildered (as with many forms in that encyclopedia, no idea where that big luohan quan comes from).

    Deyang; I spent time at his school THe video of deyang is Da pao quan, same as in tagous books (almost). He doesn't have a xiao pao quan video that I am aware of, but the xiao pao quan they practice in his school is the same as the one we are talking about (2/3, last section omitted as usual). The main difference I remember is that they emphasize the elbows when using hammers, makes it look a bit different.

    Pao quan is one of those famous forms that every style has a version of. It usually shares the 'explosive' characteristics. If you watch the video above by yongwen he lists many styles of pao quan, it is entirely possible the form coud be of the same style at e'mei. I was at wudang earlier this year and even they have an explosive pao quan, not wudang character at all.

    As to YongXins little yellow book... I am planning to go to Shaolin next week if i have time. Can't go on the weekend because its too busy (shame, the weather is perfect today). I'll try and pick up all the books while I am there and have a look. I'll let you know if there are any new ones out. 23 postures? Are you sure its not a reiteration of Da pao quan, it can vary quite a lot, the things to look out for is some sort of claw at the begining and a xu bu with 'tiger comes out of cave' like hands in the middle. Plus some strange ma bu footwork, usually a 360 spin, but sometimes just stepping backward several times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    2 - what the heck is the Xiao Pao Quan that Shi Deyang is showing?
    the video he has of xiaopaoquan is exactly the same set as the dapaoquan from liu zhenhai (yilu on the video). it is only missing the middle section after the slapkick and double punch, but comes back in with the spin around gongbu punch. should be fairly easy to see.

    it is the same set shown here too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxkuqTcSrkc

    his dapaoquan videos (yilu and erlu) together is one set, the same set as liu zhenhai's xiaopaoquan (or erlu and sanlu paoquan on the video). the difference is, when they are put together to form an entire set, deyang's lacks the whole ending section shown on the sanlu video you uploaded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    the video he has of xiaopaoquan is exactly the same set as the dapaoquan from liu zhenhai (yilu on the video). it is only missing the middle section after the slapkick and double punch, but comes back in with the spin around gongbu punch. should be fairly easy to see.

    it is the same set shown here too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxkuqTcSrkc

    his dapaoquan videos (yilu and erlu) together is one set, the same set as liu zhenhai's xiaopaoquan (or erlu and sanlu paoquan on the video). the difference is, when they are put together to form an entire set, deyang's lacks the whole ending section shown on the sanlu video you uploaded.
    Ah, thanks for the clarification. Because it said "Xiao" on his vcd, I didn't compare it to the other Pao Quan sets. So, since the Tagou Da Pao Quan set is shorter, it does make more since to call it Xiao. I wish they didn't start using this Xiao and Da nomenclature.

    So, the Tagou Da Pao Quan set, the Liu ZhenHai Pao Quan Yi Lu set, and Shi Deyang Xiao Pao Quan are all the same set, more or less.

    Shi Deyang's Pao Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu are clearly the Tagou Xiao Pao Quan / Liu Zhen Hai Er Lu and San Lu set, more or less.

    The ending of the Pao Quan set is even longer than that. I think the the 112 movement Tagou Xiao Pao Quan has a very long ending, which looks like another routine that continues from where most of them end.

    okay, that's another mystery solved.

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