Shaolin Pao Quan - what a mess

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, Shaolin Pao Quan is another group of sets that are really mixed up as far as routines go.

Originally, Shaolin Quan was called Shaolin Chui, as in Hammer strikes.
There are reports that the early Shaolin material that was presented in an exhibition for the newly installed Tang Emperor consisted of some Rou Quan and Pao Chui (Soft Boxing and Cannon Hammer strikes). The Rou Quan material came from the nei gong routines of the elder Shaolin monks; the Pao Chui material came from the military advisers that were influencing Shaolin martial arts at the time.

More than likely this Pao Chui material came from the Da Hong Quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist) that was popular along the Yellow River Basin and practiced by the Sui and Tang military.

During the later 1400s of the Ming Dynasty, thanks to Li Sou, Bai Yufeng, and Jue Yuan, Shaolin martial arts incorporated the Da Hong Quan style that these people have imported from far western China (Shaanxi and Gansu Shanxi).
Originally part of this Hong Quan system included a series of sets called Pao Chui.

During the Qing Dynasty, the Pao Chui material became practiced separately from the Hong Quan material and they started mixing in other stuff into the movements of these sets. Eventually they became their own sub-style known as Shaolin Pao Quan.
(this material had a large influence on Chen family Taiji Quan's Pao Chui sets, as well as the Pao Chui sets from the neighboring Chang Family Nei Jia Quan style).
(also, the style of Tong Bei Quan was developed from out of this Hong Quan and Pao Quan material, along with Taizu Chang Quan.)

Anyways, no two people seem to be doing their Shaolin Pao Quan sets that same way. No two schools or lineages neither. There seems to be great divergence. Researchers say this could be because the material separated a long time ago and different branches of practitioners did not communicate with each other or simply that hardly anyone had learned or remembered the full sets and they started changing them or adding in other material to supplement what was lost.

One thing that should be seen in Pao Quan / Pao Chui sets is, because of the Li Sou/ Bai Yufeng / Jue Yuan connection, some postures and movements overlapping with Shaolin Luohan Quan and also Shaolin Xiao and Da Hong Quan.

So, here again, I am going to present whatever videos are easily available on the internet of these sets and some commentary.
Anyone who has more information about the sets, their history, and so on, please let us know, thanks.
Same as how we all did the Luohan Quan, Rou Quan, and other thread, thanks!

The Shaolin Encyclopedia shows these Pao Quan sets:
1- Shaolin Pao Quan (55 postures)
2- Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu (24 postures)
3 - Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan Er Lu (29 postures)
4 - Shaolin Da Pao Chui (38 postures) - supposed was influenced by Emei Pao Chui style (does look very similar to Emei San Huang Pao Chui - Three Emperor Cannnon Hammers)

The 5 volume / revised 2 volume Dengfeng Tagou school books show two Pao Quan sets.
1 - Shaolin Xiao Pao quan (112 postures), which is the same as #1 above Shaolin Pao Quan, except it has a much longer ending section.
2 - Shaolin Da Pao Quan (31 postures)

In the VCDs released by Liu Zhenhai, he shows three Pao Quan sets that look nothing like the Xiao Pao Quan and Da Pao Quan shown in the Tagou school's books, which are the Eagle Claw Pao Quan, the Zhuo Shou Pao Quan, and a different Xiao Pao Quan.
He also has three VCDs of a Pao Quan Yi lu, Er Lu, and San Lu.

Shi deyang also does a very short Xiao Pao Chui set that looks pretty much like Da Pao Quan under closer examination. It is not the same as the Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu or Er Lus ets shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.

videos:

Shaolin Pao Quan from Shaolin Encyclopedia, also known as Xiao Pao Quan in Tagou books:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEOuTptAkJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivbC4eKqz7o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lev-mkcR4s (as done by Liu Jun Hai himself)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5JATHlmpEc (here it is called Lao Pao Chui - Old Cannon Hammers)

interesting version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPA7I-xlexk

Pao Quan Yi Lu set from Liu Zhenhai, IDENTICAL to Da Pao Quan set in the Tagou books:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VWQ6SfiwFw

Pao Quan Er Lu set from Liu Zhenhai (pretty much same as Tagou's Xiao Pao Quan first section, from above):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgP2UqmLwpA

Pao Quan San Lu set from Liu Zhenhai (roughly same as second section of Tagou's Xiao Pao Quan):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN5xs4UT79c

Shaolin Ti Shou Pao Quan (提手炮拳 - Lifting hand cannon fist) set from Liu Zhenhai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvstk4Z9YaM

Shaolin Eagle Claw Pao Quan set from Liu Zhenhai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eEUjrwC7Ac

Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan set from Liu Zhenhai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBe2lUtIOgQ

Shi Deyang's Xiao Pao Chui (which is basically Tagou's short Da Pao Quan set):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmn5x3fYVuo

Shaolin Pao Quan set (same as in Abbot Shi Yongxin's book), here called Da Pao Quan, first half of set, the rest is cut off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNK0ARYRwT8

Pao Quan set that is very similar to what is called Xiao Pao Quan in the Shaolin Encyclopedia (but not the same as the Xiao Pao Quan of the Tagou books):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFInayzqygI

Other:

Pao Quan set from the style of Zhong Hua Si Mian Ba Fang Tong Bei Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWqhMUh47vE

Shaanxi Hong (red) Quan - Pao Chui [陕西红拳 - 炮锤]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC1xArKobE0

Northern long fist pao quan from Shandong area jia men chang quan (islamic long fist):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9P60vuB86o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMZN7q (San Lu Pao Quan)

I will add more as I find them. Feel free to direct me to more for this list. thanks

[Xian]

Shaolin Zhou Tong Pao Quan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm1E0h4gYj0&feature=plcp

Shàolín Zhōu Dòng Pào Quán
This form was almost lost and today is rarely seen.
According to tradition this form was passed down to the monks at Shaolin by Master Zhao Tong (the better known Ying Zhua Pao Quan form is also attributed to Zhou Tong).
Shaolin tradition says that Zhou Tong learned the martial arts and military skills passed down from three kingdoms period General Jiang Wei as a Child in the Tongguan area of Shaanxi After this he Journeyed to Shaolin where he studied under master Tan Zheng Fang. Later he became known by the name "Iron Arm" Zhou Tong and travelled around mastering a great number of esoteric martial skills which he passed down to his students. Among his students were many famous heroes including several of the outlaw heroes of Liang Shan (the Water Margin) such as "Leopard Head" Lin Chong, "Jade Unicorn" Lu Junyi, "Sickly Officer" Sun Li, and "Pilgrim"/"Tiger Fighting Hero" Wu Song.
However he is best known as the teacher of great General Yue Fei who was his last and best student to Whom he Taught Archery, Boxing, Stick Fighting, and military strategy among other things.
Besides being remembered at Shaolin he is also said to have passed on Chuo Jiao and Fanzi Quan to Yue Fei and several of the Liangshan Heroes. He is said to have Learned Chuo Jiao from it's creator, Taoist Deng Liang. Besides this he also is supposed to have passed on many forms of martial Qigong and to have taught Yue Fei a system of Qinna that he used as the basis for his Eagle Claw Methods
However Most of What Is traditionally told of him appears to Be from Ming and Qing dynasty popular novels.
According to Song Dynasty material he was Yue Fei's second teacher in the military arts from his first teacher he had learned military spear methods and from Zhou Tong he learned Archery and along with military strategy. Yue Fei was said to be Zhou Tong's favorite student to whom he gave two of his best bows. After his death Yue Fei mourned him greatly offering sacrifices of wine and meat twice a month at his grave and firing three arrows in his memory each time.
So Basically in the early material Zhou Tong is only described as a local hero from the Anyang area of Henan province(not Shaanxi) who was a teacher of Archery and military skills to Yue Fei. There is no mention of any Kungfu until Hundreds of Years later.

Shaolin Lao Pao Quan from a competition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbruVoBstoc&feature=plcp


Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan: (Looks very similar to how Deyang does it I think)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O3pu3RedWs&feature=plcp


Dejian doing Pao Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQGeukYWlEI&feature=plcp


Best regards,
Xian

[Xian]

Nothing on that Zhou Tong Pao Quan ?

@by the way.

I reread that thread for the third time in the last months I guess. Do I understand it correctly that the Xiao Pao Quan(Liu Zhenhais Pao Quan Er and San Lu) are basically from a sub system which was called Shaolin Ti Shou Pao Quan ?

And what about the Ying Zhao Pao Quan mentioned earlier by Sal ? I mentioned Liu Zhen Hais book saying that the Ying Zhao is the Yi Lu, followed by the VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai and then Er and San(Xiao Pao Quan).
Very interesting but still a bit confusing.


Best regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Nothing on that Zhou Tong Pao Quan ?

It looks like it must be another sect's version of the first part of Tishou Paoquan. The individual techniques are different but the sequence is roughly the same, if you look closely, enough to assume they are related.

Do I understand it correctly that the Xiao Pao Quan(Liu Zhenhais Pao Quan Er and San Lu) are basically from a sub system which was called Shaolin Ti Shou Pao Quan ?

Yes. Put together it makes one long set, usually broken into three roads, of which the third is rarely seen. As I remember, his Erlu VCD showed the first 2/3 or so, and the Sanlu finished. It has been a while since I've seen it though.

I mentioned Liu Zhen Hais book saying that the Ying Zhao is the Yi Lu, followed by the VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai and then Er and San(Xiao Pao Quan).

"The VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai"... Wie ich mich erinnere, war es das, was er Dapaoquan genannt hat, und was Shi Deyang Xiaopaoquan nennt, und nicht Yingzhao Paoquan. Nicht wahr?

In any case, that shorter set is a modern one, created in the 1900's by Shi Yongxiang, the monk who gave all his notes to Shi Deqian to write the Shaolin Encyclopedia, as a simplification of an older set.

[RenDaHai]

I think the Zhou TOng looks familiar... I think I know the area it may be from, looks like nanyuan pai.... Also it has a similarity with YingZHua pao Quan in the way it uses GuiBUQiXing-Danbian, Unusual for a Shaolin form, but common in other styles.


@LFJ

Hey J, any more info on this Shi YongXiang? (Disciples, masters, etc.)

[LFJ]

Hey J, any more info on this Shi YongXiang? (Disciples, masters, etc.)

I think all the info I had on him came from the Encyclopedia or was related to it. But I seem to have accidentally erased it from this computer. I just have an empty folder pointing to it. I had an electronic version. It must be on an external harddrive somewhere.

The main thing I remember reading was that he was in Shaolin prior to the 1928 incident, and retained his information all of which in the 80's he passed onto Shi Deqian to compile in the Encyclopedia, and performed many of the sets as reference for the drawing and writing the steps.

In the intro to the short Paoquan set it said he created it as an introductory set for his students. At some point in the Encyc. it may have named some of them. Don't remember. Will have to look through it again.

[Xian]

It looks like it must be another sect's version of the first part of Tishou Paoquan. The individual techniques are different but the sequence is roughly the same, if you look closely, enough to assume they are related.

Yeah I also work on the Pao Quan so I saw the similarities. It looks basically like a shorter version I guess, with some moves applied unsually(at least for me).
I was interested in the History TeaSerpenti researched with it. I mean I know that many arts are attributed to famous persons. But I think calling my art Zhou Tong Pao Quan is really a claim.

"The VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai"... Wie ich mich erinnere, war es das, was er Dapaoquan genannt hat, und was Shi Deyang Xiaopaoquan nennt, und nicht Yingzhao Paoquan. Nicht wahr?

What the ? First time reading it I thought I might have confused English with German while writing, wouldnt have been impossible Google Translator ?

Nein, ich suche eben das Zitat von Sal heraus:

2. I have a book by Liu Zhenhai (I have many by him) and one of them has three sets in it of Pao Quan, which are labelled Yi Lu, Er Lu, and San Lu Pao Quan!
The book is Shaolin Quan Gun Dao Xie Tao Lu Jing Cui, 1990, isbn 7563901140.

Okay, so I dug them up today and have been comparing them to the videos.

- The Yi Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is exactly his Ying Zhua Pao Quan set, with no changes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eEUjrwC7Ac

- The Er Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is a much more detailed version of the Tagou Dao Pao Quan set (which is the Yi Lu set in his videos):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VWQ6SfiwFw

- The San Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is a full 76 posture set / 139 movements, and is the most complete version I have ever seen of the Xiao Pao Quan set (Tagou), much more detailed and with all the transition movements shown that aren't even in his VCD videos of the set (his Er Lu and San Lu videos):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgP2UqmLwpA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN5xs4UT79c

In my opinion, this is the definitive version of the long Pao Quan set, much more complete, smooth, and coherent than the Tagou version or of any videos.

By the way, Liu Zhenhai says that the Eagle Claw Pao Quan set dates back from the Song Dynasty and was created by a monk named Zhao.
Also, he states that the Siezing Hand Pao Quan set comes down from the teachings of high monk Miao Ju.

I spoke of this qoute from Sal. See what I mean ?

In any case, that shorter set is a modern one, created in the 1900's by Shi Yongxiang, the monk who gave all his notes to Shi Deqian to write the Shaolin Encyclopedia, as a simplification of an older set.

Sorry maybe my post was not clear. I did spoke of Liu Zhenhais Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu as shown in VCD. As far as I could figure out his Pao Quan Er and San are basically Xiao Pao Quan.

Thanks and Best regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

@Xian: Mein Deutsch ist immer noch sehr schlecht, weil ich letzte Woche gerade angefangen habe, Deutsch zu lernen!

I see now, because I didn't have the book. But it sounds like it looks like this:

According to the book:

Yilu = Yingzhao Paoquan
Erlu = Dapaoquan
Sanlu = Xiaopaoquan (in full)

According to the VCDs:

Yilu = Dapaoquan
Erlu = 1st 2/3 of Xiaopaoquan
Sanlu = final 1/3 of Xiaopaoquan
And Yingzhao Paoquan stands alone.

Of course, the book makes more sense, and shows more detail than the VCDs. The three sets in full should be separate lines like this. But not that they are "roads" of the same system.

[Sal Canzonieri]

@Sal

You've mixed up the names a little.

THe book from Tagou will be by 'Liu Hai Chao' not by Liu Zhen Hai. Similar names I know. Liu hai chao is the first son of liu bao shan, headmaster and founder of Tagou. He speaks good english, he wrote Tagous books. Liu hai chao does not have kung fu ability himself but he is a scholar of kung fu.

LiuZhenHai is someone else. COmes from a Dengfeng martial arts family and was a student of Degen Da shi. Liu Zhen hai is a great master and has perhaps the largest repertoire of forms of anyone ever.

This explains why their sets are different.

Thanks, I made the corrections to the text.

@PAO quan. Shaolin has many sets called Pao quan. The eagle claw pao quan is from LiuZhenHais lineage, that is probably a performance from his son. Many many styles use a form called pao quan. The pao quan in DengFeng is generaly Da pao quan. This form is rather short and insignificant. The Pao quan in Tagous books is very long, I have no idea where this comes from...

Generally what is considered as real Pao Chui is the form from WuShanLin's Lineage. This is the one with all the hammers and lots of gong bu xie xings. Usually when we talk about Pao quan we are referring to this form. The vast majority of this form now practiced in Dengfeng comes from WuShanLin. It is remarkable how much it has changed in the hands of each school.

WuShanLin's lineage is survived now by WuNanFang and SHi De Jian (who is very famous now). WuShanLin died in 1970 and most of the pao quan surviving now is 3rd hand from him at best. WuShanLin was one of Degen Da Shis Masters. He is generally considered as having the best shaolin of the last 100 years. I am very lucky in that my master SHi Yong Wen actually trained with Wushanlin himself back in 1968 and learned Pao Quan, XinYiBa and Shi Ba Dian Mei Qi Gun. However he considers all these forms as shaolins secrets and does not teach them. I have been lucky enough to see his Pao quan however. It is very similar to those I learned before.

This form is actually two forms put together to form one. As with many shaolin sets there is also a 3rd set. I have only seen a video of this. As to the extra sets by Liu Zhen Hai they are a different pao quan, shaolin has many (the first set he does is the same however). The pao quan we are referring to was returned to shaolin by Wushanlin.

On an interesting note Pao quan follows the symmetry of xiao hong quan closely, as if it were created with xiao hong quan as a template. You will have to practice both a lot to see what I mean.

This set of Pao quan is, in my humble opinion, the quintessence of shaolin quan. If you are confused by the myriad forms of Pao quan, forget them all and highlight only this one.

If no one has heard of him It is worth looking up the name Wu shan lin (sometimes wu san lin).

Yes, I agree, my research has shown that Xiao Hong Quan and Pao Quan come from the same original system. It is very clear when you learn both and practice the movements.

Do you know of a good video of this definitive Pao Quan so we can show the other people reading this?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Abbot Shi Yong Xin's new book on Pao Quan shows a form I have never seen before.
it's very different from what is shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia and Tagou books as Pao Quan.

[wuseng33]

where are these new books on the old forms available from? i have heard of them being in the works for a while but havnt come across one yet. sal do you have a copy of it or similar? are they worth buying?

[Sal Canzonieri]

where are these new books on the old forms available from? i have heard of them being in the works for a while but havnt come across one yet. sal do you have a copy of it or similar? are they worth buying?

I'd say the only thing worth buying in the last 5 years are Abbot Shi Yong Xin's books on the Shaolin routines.

I have gotten all of mine (there are I think 10 of them out so far) from www.frelax.com, sometimes Amazon.com has some of them.
You can get them from most Chinese book selling websites, if you know Chinese.

They are yellow.

Check the end area of the Luohan Quan thread, I give a link to all his books on frelax.com, you can order from them in english, and they are very fast with delivery, and they give free delivery too!

[wuseng33]

who is the shifu actualy doing this pao quan? i have seen this version on youtube however it is missing a lot of moves I think? correct me if im wrong? the wu nan fang version is also slow and precise like this however as you said the mechanics are different. it may be in this site although i dont have time to look at the moment.
http://www.chanwuyi.com
i think it was one of his students doing it. I have also seen some quick village versions similar to the one you posted although containing a lot more moves.

[wuseng33]

the last shifu in the clip seems to be doing a shaolin tantui form. before i studied a 12 road tan tui which came from the shi suxi linage and it has some lines identical to these.
however the first shifu performs parts of the pao quan I have seen before. not to discredit anyone but are you sure this is from wu san lin as I have also seen their linage do a different version of this (pao quan). If i can find it again i will post it.

[LFJ]

Please Watch

Here is as Video by Shi Yong Wen;

http://www.56.com/u39/v_MTM3OTA2ODQ.html

It contains some clips of him performing WuShanLins pao quan. It also contains a lot of information on the many styles of Pao quan (if you can understand chinese).

shi yongwen in this clip says "shaolin wushu has a three section one road 'dapaoquan', and a single section 'xiaopaoquan'". (at about the 2 minute mark)

seems his naming for the sets is the same as shi deyang's. the short one is "xiao" and the long one is "da".

who all calls the long one "da" and the short one "xiao"? just tagou?