羅王宗
@LFJ
I'll have to get back to you on that one
@all
Its just gotton a little more complicated,
Just watched Liu Zhen Hais video, His 'Xiao Pao quan' is another distinct form. Its the one with the xie bu Bai fo.
So LiuZhenHai has 1lo, 2lo, 3lo, Ying Zhao, Tishou, and Xiao Pao quan. This version of xiao pao is something new, nicely symmetrical, lots of Dan bian posture.
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any videos of it online?Originally Posted by RenDaHai
it doesnt look like this "paoquan" has been discussed:
http://www.56.com/u88/v_Mjg2MzU3MTc.html
lots of danbian, and various moves from taizu changquan and hongquan sets. but looks terribly fast and modernized. not sure what its supposed to be.
might as well add shi dejun's paoquan performance too. his sets are pretty good:
http://v.ku6.com/show/gzstAOc5e18yzi40.html
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Yes, I've not seen it in any of his books or anywhere else so far, but it looks very authentic nonetheless.
And, there is still the Shaolin Encyclopedia's Yi Lu and Er Lu Xiao Pao Quan that I wonder where it comes from as well.
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the routine is this one:
Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan set from Liu Zhenhai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBe2lUtIOgQ
Ugghhh!!! That first link you gave, I've been avoiding to look it that one again!
I think it is modern wushu set of Pao Quan. Its on youtube somewhere, I saw it there too.
If it was a traditional routine once, it's now ruined.
I like Shi Dejun. He always does a strong job, and he does some rare sets sometimes, like his Lao Hong Quan (the one that goes with Xiao Hong Quan).
Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-21-2009 at 05:02 PM.
羅王宗
Yeah,
About Dejun.
How authentic is his Lao Hong quan?
I vaguely know this set. It is basically xiao hong quan but all the moves are slightly larger frame, hence it is often referred to as Da Hong quan 4 lo in dengfeng. The school Wuseng tuan uses it as Da hong quan.
I've heard a lot about Lao hong quan sets but have little experiance with them, is this the most authentic Lao hong quan? If so I will meet some of my teachers and revise it.
I often wanted to go to find Dejun to see if he knows all 13 sets of KanJia quan. I encountered another shaolin school once who practced exactly the same sets, but under a different name, and there were only 10. I found one school in Dengfeng where the headmistress knew all 13 sets, but she wouldn't teach :-( I'm quite interested in both Lao hong quan and Kanjia quan.
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Well, lets clarify something.
There's two different things called Lao Hong Quan.
1. there's the Four sets of Lao Hong Quan practiced in Dengfeng and other others areas. Liu Zhenhai teaches and has written a book on it.
These four sets are directly from Zhao Kuangyin's visit to Shaolin. They are a merger of his family Da Hong Quan style (which appears to be the Big Vast Fist that is practiced in Kaifeng / Luoyang and other areas that the Tang military congregated along the Yellow River) AND Shaolin Rou Quan. He went there to learn the essence of Shaolin Rou Quan.
I have learned these four sets and can verify that they are indeed a merger of these two styles.
These four sets are unlike the Xiao and Da Hong Quan sets that Shaolin is most known for. There is some overlap in specific movments, but the sequences of postures does not follow any in Xiao and Da Hong Quan.
2 - the set you are talking about is also practiced by Liu Zhenhai and in that region. Calling it Lao Hong Quan is not really good, as it is confusing, and it's original name was Da Hong Quan, because that's what Li Sou's style from Gansu was called. It is a longer version of Xiao Hong Quan. I have learned this set as well. There is a first section, and then at a certain point that rest of the set follows along the Xiao Hong Quan set, the only difference being it is much more complicated and advanced and has many more intermediate movements and postures than Xiao Hong Quan. This set has many similarities to Ba Qua Zhang, some of the movements are just like doing Ba Gua. In fact, Gao style Ba Gua is directly related to it, as the Gao family practiced Shaolin Da Hong Quan (this type) for a few generations.
Some people call this set Da Xiao Hong Quan, some call it Lao Xiao Hong Quan.
What it is exactly is the same setup as the other Shaolin sets:
1 - Xiao Hong Quan - the short set
2 - this related Da Hong Quan - the long set, which is in 3 sections (like all the long Shaolin sets).
Liu Zhenhai and Shi Dejun both teach this Old version of Da (Xiao) Hong Quan. There is slight variation between them. What is often see is that Shaolin has you turned around to face the audience, whereas the Liu Zhehai versions don't do that, you have your back to the audience about half the time or more. Shaolin doesn't like doing that, since they rely on exhibitions so much (and it is considered impolite).
3 - The 3 Road Da Hong Quan that most are familiar with is a totally separate style, it doesn't go with Xiao Hong Quan at all really. It is a distinct different style.
And it is not 3 Roads only, it is 13 Roads in full total. In Dengfeng you can find the first 6 Roads easily, it is very hard to find anyone still alive that knows all 13 roads.
The first 3 Roads came from Henan, the rest of them were developed in Shandong. The full 13 Road Da Hong Quan can be found in Shandong still to this day.
So, you have three options in the Dengfeng area if you want to learn this material:
1 - Learn the full version of this (old) Da (Xiao) Hong Quan set that comes from Li Sou's Da Hong Quan - Flood Fist (I posted all the names of the postures once in this forum). If you learn this, then standard Xiao Hong Quan is very basic and simple in comparison.
2 - Learn the Four Roads of Zhao Kuangyin's Lao Hong Quan style, which comes from Yellow River Da Hong Quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist). They are amazing sets to learn, I teach them and I practice them just about everyday. The short road that goes with this is Taizu Chang Quan 32 postures set. There is some overlap with these sets and Chen Taiji Quan, by the way, they share a lot of sequences of movements and postures.
3 - Learn the remaining Six Roads of Shaolin Da Hong Quan style (or more of the 13, if you can find them).
-----------------------------
The Kanjia Quan sets.
I've never seen Shi Dejun do all 13 sets. Most people have merged some sets and made them into 10 sets (these are the 10 sets that eventually reached Shandong and became the "Bei Shaolin Quan" style that is pretty famous.)
Different regions of Henan do their Kanjia different ways.
Some don't call the sets Kanjia Quan, they use different names. One calls it Jingang Quan, but that isn't right.
The Shaolin Encyclopedia shows all 13 sets of Kanjia Quan. Don't know how perfect it is done, but it's there.
This style was practiced mostly in the shrine areas surrounding Shaolin temple, and was considered an anti-qing rebel style during the 1700s. It is very close to the Da Hong quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist) style, which makes it basically village Hong quan or Folk hong quan mixed with some Shaolin Quan of that era (Luohan and so on).
Around 1735-1765, the Qing forced out the shrine area "martial monks" and rebels and they left for Shandong province. Hence, that is how the Bei Shaolin Quan style developed there.
Over time the sets were condensed and mixed with local martial arts and became the famous 10 sets that people know today.
Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-22-2009 at 07:14 AM.
羅王宗
Cool,
The 4 road lao hong quan sounds the most interesting. I've seen just one of these sets by Liuzhenhai.
The 'xiao - Da' hong quan I never really used to like, its basics are a little different from standard shaolin sets. I'll learn it again if the oppertunity presents itself.
I much prefer the standard Xiao hong quan, its simplicity is what makes it great.
I heard about DaHong quan having 13 sets. Many of the sets I see in dengfeng are just variations on 2 and 3. Liu ZhenHai has 4,5 and 6 THen I have seen a distinct 7 and 8 in another place. As to the others I have not seen. Most of them contain mainly moves from the first 3 in different combinations. Da hong quan is fantastic, would be great to learn more of it.
The Place i saw that had Kanjia quan in 10 sets under a different name (I think it was Dashanmen) this place also had 10 road jingang quan as a different set. THe school was not in shaolin though and its basics were a little removed. Must have left some generations ago.
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I love the 4 Roads of Lao Hong Quan because I totally love Taizu Chang Quan and Rou Quan. It is the missing link and a real treasure. The sets may seem simple at first (and being ancient, they should, considering the source was a young soldier named Zhao Kuang Yin), but once you ingrain them into you, you see how they serve as the root to much of what internal martial arts does.
The "Xiao" Da Hong Quan, well that set really grows on you. If you really get to explore it's ideas and strategy, you can see it is the complementary long set to the short standard Xiao Hong Quan. It's a real artifact from Li Sou and it should be deeply respected, once you get into it.
Plus, the Bagua Zhang aspects give you a new range of applications that other Shaolin sets don't offer. It really teaches you how to get out of the way of incoming attacks and divert it and then reverse yourself to clobber someone from behind or flank.
All of the sets from 4 to 13 were made from rearrange sets 1 to 3 and merging in Shandong local martial arts here and there. Kinda fun to find the puzzle pieces.
Hmm, maybe that place learned their Kanjia and Jingang direct from the Shaolin Encyclopdia, ha hah.
羅王宗
Haha, yeah I though of that, but no, its actually removed from this area by a while. The basics are all different, the same moves but done in a different way. Also the form is different, but it is enough the same to see that it is kanjia quan. THeir version doesn't stay on a straight line but goes in all 4 directions, although it is the same applications in the same sequence it no longer really looks like shaolin quan. Very interesting to see though. In some respects closer to the encyclopedia than Dejuns sets, but in other respects further removed.
The Xiao, Da hong quan looks like someone has tried to improve xiao hong quan. I can see the applications are good, but it doesn't quite seem to fit with shaolin character to me, the 'flavour' is different... Still if I get the chance I'll revise it.
I can see some Taizu movements in the lao hong quan of Liuzhenhai, very interesting.
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Strange that their Kanjia does that. But, as I said, kanjia is Shaolin's version of folk hong quan. As such, each shrine area had their own way of doing things. If practice space was limited, I can see changing the roads to go in four short directions instead of long roads.
About the long Xiao Da Hong Quan set, well, yeah, sure it looks "foreign". Its from outside Shaolin originally, its from the Gansu Da Hong Quan style that Li Sou introduced into Shaolin. Shi Dejun does a good job of it, but he does it with more Shaolin like emphasis. I have seen it done with more of it's own flavor and it looks more interesting.
He also introduced the original staff fighting methods that they became famous for later.
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so... there is also a tiebiquan (铁臂拳, iron arm boxing) that shi xingsen does on the performance vcd we've been discussing.
it is the short "dapaoquan" set, up until the 360 gongbu chongquan, which is basically the whole set, but then the ending has a completely different sequence.
not sure about this one...
all of those sets on the performance vcd have individual instructional vcds as well, by the way.
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WHAT! The TiebiQuan VCD is really Dapaoquan? with an extra section at the end?
Hmm, maybe Dapaoquan was originally this way?
ALSO, Liu's vcd on Golden Child Luohan (Arhat) is actually a more complex and traditional looking version of the Tagou ER LU (refined) Luohan Quan set!
So, that base is covered.
All these Shi Degen guys have been doing their routines for hundreds of years in that lineage (before and after Shi Degen himself, I am counting).
The Shaolin people have only been doing sets since 1980 and those are really the ones that Wu San Lun brought back to them, yes?
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i dont know. if you dont have this one i will upload it on youtube.
yeah, but very short.ALSO, Liu's vcd on Golden Child Luohan (Arhat) is actually a more complex and traditional looking version of the Tagou ER LU (refined) Luohan Quan set!
So, that base is covered.
wu shanlin was invited by ven. zhenxu to teach. so he brought his oldest son wu qianyou and taught ven. zhenxu, degen, dechan, and others. so there is some overlap there, as far as wu shanlin lineage.All these Shi Degen guys have been doing their routines for hundreds of years in that lineage (before and after Shi Degen himself, I am counting).
The Shaolin people have only been doing sets since 1980 and those are really the ones that Wu San Lun brought back to them, yes?
ven. zhenxu was also known to practice his own package. abbot henglin too. so they've done their own bit as well. ven. zhenxu died in 1955. ven. suxi and other shaolin masters learned from him, so i'm not sure what you mean by "shaolin people" starting taolu practice in 1980 via wu shanlin.
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here is the tiebiquan performed by shi xingsen
(basically dapaoquan with a different ending):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss39SG30fFk
here is the same set performed at shi xingsen's school by his student (thats him in the background).
the ending sequence to this one is much longer. it does everything in the tiebiquan above, and then an additional section. the tiebiquan video above only has a few extra moves not in the dapaoquan set usually:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9wjNzlxhqQ
funny thing is his student is solid. does it much better than him. the student's version is also more interesting. and i'm not sure where this extra sequence of moves comes from.
Last edited by LFJ; 10-29-2009 at 06:26 PM.
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I have the Tiebi Quan set on VCD, but thanks for uploading anyways, I can make a flv file that I can keep on my pc. I'll look it over and compare to Da Paoquan. ok, yes, it is indeed that Dapao Quan set, it's the first 25 postures, just missing a few at the end right before the final salute. The main difference is the flavor with which this is done. It has the strong emphasis on the circling fist thing, which isn't like modern people showing Da Pao Quan, so that's the Iron Arm thing then. Heck, who knows now what is going on? It's a much cooler way to do the set though, don't you think? This seems a lot less modern looking.
Liu Zhenhai has a set called Shaolin Za Quan, which means Smashing Fist, and it is so much like Shaolin Shi Tuo (Meteor), but Liu's order of postures is different, you can see that they are very much of the same style, but the sequences are different between the two sets.
Golden Child Luohan is very short compared to the modern Er Lu Luohan, but I bet it is the original way, because real old Luohan sets were always done in short sections, not long forms (Da Luohan is a bunch of short sets strung together). The modern version seems to have added a lot of stuff from Xiao Luohan and Lao Luohan and other sets and mashed them together.
By "Shaolin people" and "1980", I meant the performance "monks", the people that go out and do exhibitions and show the famous 10 sets (or 24 sets) of Shaolin.
Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-29-2009 at 08:50 PM.
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