Shaolin Pao Quan - what a mess

[YouKnowWho]

Do anybdy know the relationship between the Shaolin Pao Quan and the long fist Pao family San Lu Pao Chuan 三路炮拳?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbttFZr-X-U

[RenDaHai]

@youknowwho

The main style of the performer is Zha Quan. THis San lu pao quan may refer to the fact that the third road of his zha quan is called pao quan or it may be that he has a series of pao quan of which this is the third form. (san lu means third line).

Actually it looks a little like one of the shaolin forms 'Da Pao quan' as it appears in Tagous books. (referred to as xiao pao by deyang and simple pao quan by shaolin temples books series). But i would have to learn it to compare.

I can't watch the video because its youtube, but i have seen it before many times. Does anyone know if there are videos of his er lu or yi lu pao quans?

The immediately obvious similarities (for those familiar with shaolin da pao quan) are the 'meng hu chu dong' posture on one leg (the double punch looking tech) and the jump spin 360 degrees then gong bu reverse punch. Both of these appear in the shaolin form as well. As do a few of the other techs. ANyone see any other similarities? the most complete version of the shaolin da pao quan is the video by Liuzhenhai, where it is referred to as yilupaoquan. Maybe Sal has that one online.

Actually I'd be interested to know Sals opinion on this one, if your reading, thats a good question by 'youknowwho' , Sal do you think there is anyway this Zha quan Pao quan could be related to the shaolin Da pao quan? I saw the similarities when i first watched this video a long time ago but i didn't think it was enough... but since its on the table now its an interesting question.

[YouKnowWho]

I have heard that there are 10 roads Pao Chuan, but I only know the 3rd road. My friend in NYC knows the 1st road and 2nd road. As far as I know, the long fist Pao family and long fist Zha 查 family are different family. Each has 10 to 12 roads forms.

[RenDaHai]

Yes, that seems about right. THe styles of Pao quan will certainly be related, but i am now wondering if the actual taolu, the exact sequence is related also.....

[YouKnowWho]

As far as I know most long fist guys in Taiwan cross train 查花洪弹砲. I have learned 查花弹砲 families except the 洪 family. Some long fist guys called their system as northern Shaolin. The Shaolin and long fist family must have very close relationship.

[Eugene]

Hey RenDaHai,

I have been reading these things you said alot, and its great information, I have experienced somewhat with finding a hammer fist and understand it a little,

In combat i wonder sometimes about a normal fist, i have learned in a time period, that when I punch , I would mainly focus on my two knuckles, to not harm my fingers in an attack, I am lucky I never have to use it in a fight, but in a stressfull situation it seems very hard to focus, where to hit someone on the face and wich presicion, I can imagine in a situation of a fight you want to punch someone and smack someone on the chin with the middle of the fingers under the knockles and have it all broken.

I amagine a fist like the hammer could come handy in such away.

And also I learned then to focus mainly on the point of attack and the 2 knuckles.

You once told that Wugulun uses not there fist as focus but whole arm, I find it hard to get a feeling of correct landing of the fist in this way.

Maybe its just 1 million times practice and it becomes mother nature.

Greetings Eugene

[Sal Canzonieri]

Do anybdy know the relationship between the Shaolin Pao Quan and the long fist Pao family San Lu Pao Chuan 三路炮拳?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbttFZr-X-U

Cha Quan system (Shandong province) has sets with the same name as in Shaolin, but are not related, so they have Pao Quan and Hong Quan and other sets but they are surely all based on Cha Quan ideas of postural movements.

The Taiwanese Long Fist system's sets come originally from an area of Shandong which merged local martial arts (Plum Flower, Hua Quan, Cha Quan. and Mizhong Quan) with Shaolin sets, this happened in the 1600s, when the Qing took over.

An excerpt from my forthcoming book:

Note: Baijiazhi Meihuaquan (白家支梅花拳) – ‘Bai Family Branch Plum Blossom Boxing’ is practiced in South West part of Shandong Province. After reaching Taiwan, this school took the name ‘Beipai Shaolin Meihuaquan’ (北派少林梅花拳) – ‘Northern Faction Shaolin Plum Blossom Boxing ’ or ‘Meihuamen’ (梅花门) – ‘Plum Blossom School’.

Also, ‘Meihua Changquan’ (梅花长拳) – ‘Plum Flower Long Fist’ is the name given to Taiwan to another branch of ‘Meihua Quan’ taught there by Han Qingtang, inside of a wider system that included also other martial art of the north of China, for which its students call ‘Chang Quan’ or ‘Beishaolin’. Han Qingtang learned this ‘Meihua Quan’ in Jimo from Sun Maolin (孫茂林) and Jiang Benhe (姜本河), two masters originally from Liangshan, Shandong, where the ‘Meihua Shaolin Men’ school was founded by monks from Henan. This Meihua boxing is made up of three forms: Maifu Quan (埋伏拳); Shizitang (十字趟); Taizu Changquan (太祖长拳). Also, there is training set named ‘Xiao Wushou’ (小五手) - ‘Small Five Hands’. This school in Shandong was composed of material originally from the Henan Shaolin Luohan Quan system.

[hajimesaito]

Shaolin has two different styles: Pao Chui, and Bao quan. The former is translated as "Cannon hammers" and the latter as "Leopard fist". Shaolin Leopard style is lost now and Pao Chui is also only found as a small part of other family styles or martial arts into which it was incorporated.

[RenDaHai]

I just want to add again that if I ever inferred that Wunanfang was anything other than awesome i am sorry.

Many of the masters in shaolin today could improve their skill a great deal by training under Wunanfang.

And As a message to anyone who is thinking of going to or returning to dengfeng and want to study some genuinly genuine shaolin gong fu, PM me and I'll direct you to Wu Nan Fangs school. His style is like Dejians, and he is at least equal in skill.

[Eugene]

Hey RenDaHai,

I have seen alot of video`s of Wunanfang, but i am sure in real its even more better, on a website he says that * Running in the morning is a waste of the qi energy,its all lost then * Do you have an idea about this ?

Its an inspirational man, i saw an interview, where he really seems at peace.

There are alot of videos on the web on how he trains and what they do on a day,
In a book I read from ChenManChing, he desribes also that when you push. dont watch the hand, move your whole body, as you mentioned, from foot to hand its all one move. That was pritty cool when was reading this.

[RenDaHai]

Hey Eugene,

No, don't worry about losing Qi. By tradition in china there are lots of things that cause you to lose qi... But I wouldn't worry about them unless you are in a stage of meditating all day every day, and you will only do this for a few days at a time...

Even then, I know an old qi gong master who runs every morning, so i wouldn't worry.

But still, Wunanfang is very very good, certainly if you come to dengfeng to train i would suggest looking for his school.

[Eugene]

Hey MichaBusch,

thx for making it clear, running away in a fight is handy sometimes.

Eugene

[LFJ]

Totally exhausting yourself by doing a lot of springting, frog jumps, bear crawls and other fun stuff that they do in the morning at most of the schools in Dengfeng will make you lose Qi. But normal jogging is no problem at all.

this sounds like an excuse to avoid bitter training.

you have to expel all the stagnant qi to develop fresh qi.

[Xian]

Hey dont know if its accurate here,but Sifu Wu released two Pao Chuis from Shaanxi school of Pao Quan.
If its not right here, sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXgq1XRKQ5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfJfX...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vEOY...eature=related


Kind regards,
Xian

[YouKnowWho]

Cha Quan system (Shandong province) has sets with the same name as in Shaolin, but are not related, so they have Pao Quan and Hong Quan and other sets but they are surely all based on Cha Quan ideas of postural movements.

The Taiwanese Long Fist system's sets come originally from an area of Shandong which merged local martial arts (Plum Flower, Hua Quan, Cha Quan. and Mizhong Quan) with Shaolin sets, this happened in the 1600s, when the Qing took over.

An excerpt from my forthcoming book:

Note: Baijiazhi Meihuaquan (白家支梅花拳) – ‘Bai Family Branch Plum Blossom Boxing’ is practiced in South West part of Shandong Province. After reaching Taiwan, this school took the name ‘Beipai Shaolin Meihuaquan’ (北派少林梅花拳) – ‘Northern Faction Shaolin Plum Blossom Boxing ’ or ‘Meihuamen’ (梅花门) – ‘Plum Blossom School’.

Also, ‘Meihua Changquan’ (梅花长拳) – ‘Plum Flower Long Fist’ is the name given to Taiwan to another branch of ‘Meihua Quan’ taught there by Han Qingtang, inside of a wider system that included also other martial art of the north of China, for which its students call ‘Chang Quan’ or ‘Beishaolin’. Han Qingtang learned this ‘Meihua Quan’ in Jimo from Sun Maolin (孫茂林) and Jiang Benhe (姜本河), two masters originally from Liangshan, Shandong, where the ‘Meihua Shaolin Men’ school was founded by monks from Henan. This Meihua boxing is made up of three forms: Maifu Quan (埋伏拳); Shizitang (十字趟); Taizu Changquan (太祖长拳). Also, there is training set named ‘Xiao Wushou’ (小五手) - ‘Small Five Hands’. This school in Shandong was composed of material originally from the Henan Shaolin Luohan Quan system.

It's amazing that you understand my longfist system in such a detail. Would you mind to share who your teacher is?

Here is the ‘Xiao Wushou’ (小五手) - ‘Small Five Hands’ to share to those who may be interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXwp33XpQhQ