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Thread: Shaolin Pao Quan - what a mess

  1. #91
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    Revisiting this thread I've found there are some questions left unanswered.

    I can provide an answer on one, but in doing so raise another question.

    Firstly, the unanswered question was just what are the Paoquan sets shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. I can't believe we didn't read what the introduction to them says, but here it is:

    There are three sets. Xiaopaoquan, Erlu Xiaopaoquan, and Dapaochui.

    The first Xiaopaoquan says it is a simplification of Yilu Paoquan, also known as Sanjie Paoquan (three sections). This longer set was simplified as an introduction to it by monk Yongxiang (永祥) who called the new simplification Xiaopaoquan.

    (Ven. Yongxiang lived in Shaolin before 1928 and kept many notes and such which he passed to Ven. Deqian to reorganize in the encyclopedia.)

    So what is this Xiaopaoquan shown?

    It is what we were calling Dengfeng Paoquan. It is what Shi Deyang calls Xiaopaoquan, what the Tagou books call Dapaoquan, and what Liu Zhenhai called Yilu Paoquan in his VCD.

    The Erlu Xiaopaoquan shown in the encyclopedia says it is an expansion upon this Xiaopaoquan. I have never seen this set before.

    So both of these Xiaopaoquan are quite modern then, but came from Shaolinsi via Ven. Yongxiang.

    There is a Dapaochui shown which says it is much older- from Song Dynasty Abbot Fuju. It was based on Luohan Shibashou, Luohanquan, Da Xiao Hongquan, and Tongbiquan.

    This Dapaochui was expanded by monk Zhanju in the Qing Dynasty and has three roads, but is not the long Shaolin Paoquan we are all familiar with. I don't recognize this set either.

    Since the other two Xiaopaoquan sets are not like the three section Paoquan we were discussing here (Shi Deyang- Dapaoquan / Tagou- Xiaopaoquan / Liu Zhenhai- Erlu & Sanlu Paoquan), then the three section "Sanjie Paoquan" they were based on must refer to this odd Song Dynasty one shown with them in the Encyclopedia called Dapaochui.

    So that's that.............................

    But it leaves the question of just where this long Paoquan set we are all familiar with came from.

    Another question I have is from the beginning of this thread, Sal mentioned some military Paochui material that was practiced along with Rouquan long ago. And then some Paoquan that was part of Li Sou's Hongquan system that he brought to Shaolin. Later in the Ming/Qing or so, the Paoquan material became separated from the Hongquan and evolved into its own Shaolin Paoquan subsystem today.

    My question on this is what happened to the old military Paochui, or did that mix with Li Sou's Paoquan stuff to later become it's own Shaolin Paoquan subsystem? And is this perhaps the material from which comes our familiar long Paoquan set? That would probably place it at best and Ming/Qing Dynasty.

  2. #92
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    Li Sou's pao quan was part of the large Hong quan system from his province.

    it's what eventually came into Shaolin and became the roots of tongbi Quan and from that Chen Taiji Quan.
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  3. #93
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    The military Paochui 's loose techniques just got mixed into creating what eventually was Shaolin Long First that existed before the Ming Dynasty. Not a great mystery, it's loose techniques are mostly seen in a lot of Shaolin's oldest routines.

    You can see them in the Shaolin Rou Quan Pao Chui set that I have showing on my Youtube page. That set looks different from most other Shaolin sets.

    Don't forget the major re-organization that Shaolin went through in the Qing dynasty. Most of the major routines were developed then from reconstituting various sets and reorganizing other sets, obviously like they did with the Pao Quan sets.
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  4. #94
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    Pao Quan are many.

    According to my research of visiting various villages in SongShan the long Pao quan we are all familiar with, the one with 3 sections, it is a NanYuan Pai form.

    It is NanYuan TiShou PaoQuan. (Rising Cannon Fist of the Southern Abbey). However it is now practiced by everyone and has taken on a Xiyuan flavour. Actually XiYuan (Western Abbey) has its own TiSHouPaoQuan which I know, and it is nothing like the LZH TishouPaoQuan (I dunno WHERE that comes from, all though it closes with some techs from 'PoSimen'). It is (XiyuanTiShou) similar to the long Pao Quan in technique but not in structure. LFJ I showed it to you when you were in china.

    To make things more confusing there is also a 'JieSHou' pao quan. This Form (which I also know) is obviously adapted from XiaoHongQuans later sets.

    The Other Xiao and Da Pao quans a real mystery to me. The LZH xiao Pao quan is an extremely simple collection of fundamental techniques and is probably a 'Rumen' form if you study Pao Quan exclusively. The Da Pao Quan (as Tagous books say) is common enough in dengfeng and contains some reasonable technique but is specialised and less useful than Tishou or JieShou.


    Amongst one (now the predominant) NanYuan sect (Which Separated 360 years ago from Shaolin) TiSHouPaoQuan is still practiced. It is similar to the current Long Pao quan. Xiyuan TishouPao is unusual but still survives. It is based on the same set of technique. So I think we are looking at at least a 400 year history of this PaoQuan material. As to Jie shou Pao quan it is clearly Hong Quan. The other Pao Quans are not related and could come from anywhere, the name is a classic kung Fu name.


    My ShiYe is the best authority I know of on Shaolins sets, and he told me that there are 4 styles of Pao Quan in Shaolin. Ti shou Pao Quan (what we currently think of as Pao Quan), Jie Shou Pao Quan (basically Hong Quan) and two other which he has not told me the names of.

    Ti shou is Rising hand and Jie SHou is intercepting hand.



    Recently looking over many different sects there are common small sequences of technique. For example 1 10 move sequence appears in the Tongbeiquan of some schools, in the Meihua Quan of others and in the LiuHe Quan of others. The moves are the same but the form they appear in is different. There are many such short sequences. It implies to me that the techniques are original but sometime in the last few hundred years the sets have been reorganised. Except with older forms like XiaoHongQuan which is remarkebly similar between for example the 360 year old sect and the current version.

    I hope I managed to add something useful. There are many other PaoQuans in SongShan but I beleive my master that they were from 4 fundamental schools of PaoQuan.

    EDIT: By the way Tishou and Jie shou pao quan are not just individual forms but distinct substyles. Not all the roads have survived, but I believe Nanyuan Tishou has 4 surviving sets.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 01-14-2012 at 01:53 PM.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    LFJ I showed it to you when you were in china.
    I remember you showing me some really neat looking stuff. Just wish my memory were super pictographic!

    The Other Xiao and Da Pao quans a real mystery to me. The LZH xiao Pao quan is an extremely simple collection of fundamental techniques and is probably a 'Rumen' form if you study Pao Quan exclusively. The Da Pao Quan (as Tagous books say) is common enough in dengfeng and contains some reasonable technique but is specialised and less useful than Tishou or JieShou.
    Not sure about his Xiaopaoquan but that one with the 360 punch and all that is a modern set as stated in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. It was created by Ven. Yongxiang as a simplification of a longer three section Song Dynasty Paoquan also shown in the encyclopedia (which no one recognizes).

    He had copied some notes before leaving Shaolin in 1927 to care for his father who had fallen ill. Then in 1981 he passed all the info onto Ven. Deqian to reorganize into the Shaolin Encyc.

    EDIT: By the way Tishou and Jie shou pao quan are not just individual forms but distinct substyles. Not all the roads have survived, but I believe Nanyuan Tishou has 4 surviving sets.
    So, Nanyuan Tishou Paoquan is the name of the long three section Paoquan everyone does today, and it has three more sets in addition to this?

    But we still don't quite know what its origin is? Likely Qing Dynasty extracts from Li Sou's Hongquan system?

    Also, do you know why it is called Tishou? I've only seen this name in for example Dahongquan as the hand technique that immediately precedes the yaobu / jianbu dancha movement.

    LZH's Tishou Paoquan is said to have come from another monastery. I don't remember now, but in the video he mentioned the name of the monastery and the monk who taught it. But again, I'm not sure why they are called Tishou. Do you know?

  6. #96
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    Well, that would make sense about DaPaoQuan.

    Makes sense on LZH's Tishou as well, thats why it seems unrelated to the others.

    Yes, according to my research the long PaoQuan is Nanyuan Tishou Paoquan.

    Actually I think as performed by LZH is in total 3 sets merged. But some people say it is just 2 sets merged. THere is a performance by GuoDejiang who does the whole thing and splits it into 3 sections. But I don't know, a lot of people vary on this. I only witnessed the 1st road of an old nanyuan version of it, it was shorter, but similar. This year I plan to learn this rare old version if I can, then I will know for certain.

    I would imagine the 'JieSHou Pao Quan' is the one related to Hong Quan, as it is obviously hong quan material if you see it. I think TiShou is the classic Shaolin Pao Quan.

    Why TiShou? Great question. Of that I have no idea. A lot of the sets are characterized in this way. In my sect we refer to it as simply 'Pao quan' and only add the Tishou if we are talking about other Paoquans. For example there is also Renshou Tong bei, Yaoshou LiuHe, CaShou Luohan e.t.c I think it is probably a very old name (especially if it is in the other temples form as well). It probably had a predominant 'tishou' movement originally, but that has been modified over the years, but the old name remains by right of tradition. It does begin with a 'rising' like movement in all versions....But I don't have a specific technique called 'tishou'. I will ask the NanYuanPai next time I go there.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 01-14-2012 at 03:02 PM.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    I would imagine the 'JieSHou Pao Quan' is the one related to Hong Quan, as it is obviously hong quan material if you see it. I think TiShou is the classic Shaolin Pao Quan.
    And by "classic" are we perhaps talking about as early as Song Dynasty?

    Ven. Yongxiang's short set was based on an old three-section Paoquan, and there is in fact a three-section Song Dynasty Paoquan set shown there that we don't recognize. I'm assuming that's what it was based on, since they are shown together. There is also an er lu to that short set, made as an expansion on it. But I have never seen this one anywhere either, besides the encyclopedia.

    I'm wondering if our Nanyuan Tishou Paoquan is not also from Song Dynasty, Abbot Fuju, times...

    But that would of course predate Li Sou's Hongquan, hence making it unrelated to the Paoquan material that came from that system.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I'm wondering if our Nanyuan Tishou Paoquan is not also from Song Dynasty, Abbot Fuju, times...
    .
    My assumption was that it is the oldest PaoQuan. It is refferred to in the village along with XiaoHongQuan as the true heritage of JinNaLuoWang. Don't know if that helps.

    Again I find myself without my encyclopedia, but I will have to check out those other Pao Quans. I remember them having some strange ones I didn't recognise.

    There is so much Pao Quan. TiShou Pao Quans seems to be the most popular. It is a good collection of technique. I think I will pursue it above the others.

  9. #99
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    I have an old book from 1983 that shows this set simply as Paochui, and shows all three sections (also all three sections of Dahongquan).

    I'm not sure of the accuracy of the third section, but the first two are standard. Nothing wrong at all. The third section has all the similar moves to Liu Zhenhai's video, but does some things in another direction. LZH's video version flipped and flopped some segments of the first two sections. So I'm gonna say, based on the accuracy of the first two sections in this book, that the last section is accurate as well. I don't have much else on hand to compare it to right now though....

    In the introduction it speaks of the demo the monks did for the Tang emperor, showing Rouquan and Paochui. It doesn't exactly say this was the set shown, but is suggestive at least. (Why mention that when showing this set, if it's not the one you're talking about?)

    Also, it uses the 'red' character for Dahongquan.

  10. #100
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    Yeah, rare sections get chopped around a bit. The directions don't matter, as long as it is the same moves there abouts contained. I have LZH demo, GuoDeJiangs demo, Tagous book and my own versions of the third section to compare amongst. They are all pretty similar, definately a few changes, and some direction changes but nothing major. Can see its the same set.

    PaoChui as a name is certainly old, they may have assumed it is that set, and it may well be the same.... Certainly I think That that Pao Quan is the remanant of the original, but looking at the differences between XHQ's it could well have changed a fair bit.

    Dahong as red fist? Well, the person writing down may have heard wrong, There is a red hong Quan in shaolin, but It's no where near as famous.

  11. #101
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    That's what I think on this Paochui as well.

    Wasn't the Dahonguquan style from Gansu that Li Sou practiced a 'red' Hong, and changed to 'flood' in Shaolin? But anyway, the Dahongquan shown in that book is the three road set that Shi Deyang does.

    The author is photographed being trained in front of Shaolin by Xingzheng, Xingshu, and some others. He's also photographed with Dechan several times in the book. It's from 1983, as I said.

  12. #102
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    This is a terrible example, because you can hardly see it, but the third section shown here is most like whats in the book I have- directions and everything. It has a "meng hu chu dong" done with the right leg off the ground and leaning into the technique. This is not in the Liu Zhenhai book or video version.

    One thing though, in the first section here it switches the placement of the chuaitui section with the later jump to pubu section, just like Liu Zhenhai's version.

    Shi Deyang's version, which most people seem to do, have these the other way. As does the old book I have.

    Anyway:

    http://www.56.com/u72/v_NDA3Nzk4Nzc.html

  13. #103

    liuzhenhai

    any body know liu zhen hai lineage does he come from she suxi

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuni View Post
    any body know liu zhen hai lineage does he come from she suxi
    No, Liu Zhenhai was a folk master from Dengfeng who studied under Shi Degen in his younger years.

  15. #105
    thanks alot ,
    according to this artikel http://www.poundthemortar.com/shaolinlineage.htm

    shi SuXi 1926-2006, DeGen 1914-68, how come that suxi more senior than degen.

    so actually the lineage all go to wu gu lun ?

    regards,

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