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Thread: Shaolin Pao Quan - what a mess

  1. #106
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    generation does not indicate seniority in that sense

    Your generation name only signifies who you took vows under. If you're a De (31st), you took vows under a Su (30th). It doesn't have anything to do with age or seniority. For example, I'm almost the same age the master I took my layman vows under. He's a De so I'm a Xing (32nd). I'm currently training under a former Yan (34th) and he's considerably younger than me.
    Gene Ching
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  2. #107
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    I always like to point out that the abbot during the early 1900's, Shi Henglin (1865-1923), was 35th generation!

    This website is simply wrong when they place him as 28th generation.
    http://www.poundthemortar.com/shaolinlineage.htm

    The 28th generation has the character Chun, not Heng.

    Although the 29th generation master Shi Zhenxu studied under Shi Henglin when he came to Shaolin Monastery, he didn't take discipleship under him. He was originally ordained under master Shi Chunzhi (28th gen.), hence the "Zhen" 29th generation name. If he had taken discipleship under Shi Henglin, he would have the 36th generation name Miao.

    Zhan (26) - Ji (27) - Chun (28) - Zhen (29) - Su (30)
    De (31) - Xing (32) - Yong (33) - Yan (34) - Heng (35)

  3. #108

    generation gap

    thank alot for the information so actually after shi hen lin is abbot mia xing do they all kill during the warlord war during yaun shi kai era and what happen with the other abbot . there is almost 7 generation gap from shi hen lin to shi xen xu . so probably almost all shaolin boxing actually loss?

    regards,

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuni View Post
    thank alot for the information so actually after shi hen lin is abbot mia xing do they all kill during the warlord war during yaun shi kai era and what happen with the other abbot . there is almost 7 generation gap from shi hen lin to shi xen xu . so probably almost all shaolin boxing actually loss?

    regards,
    Haha, No. This is a common and unfounded opinion. Few were killed. The fire in shaolin was not to kill people but to destroy it as a tactical position. It burned for a month, but people had lots of time to get out. Unfortunately many books and relics were lost. That is all. There is no generation gap.

    Also all of Shaolins techniques are and were practiced heavily in the nearby mountain villages of which there are hundreds. They still practice today, untainted.

    So really no boxing was lost. What did considerably more damage was the communist era of famine, cultural revolution and the banning of effective boxing. From 1949-1972 traditional Wushu took a step backwards, but it was still practised by the most committed. And many who learned before this period still live today.

    Recently the Shaolin Temple catalogued over 1500 traditional forms of Shaolin in SongShan, and there are probably many more. All of which are classified as Shaolin, and none of which are modern era forms. Despite the cultural revolution and the destruction of the Shaolin Temple, SongShan Shaolin is still the largest of any style of GongFu.

    Nothing is lost.

  5. #110
    @Rendahai

    Something most have been lost somehow. Otherwise why are you researching after original forms, tradtional ways to walk them, old master, how the differents systems really had been structured, like the relation between Hong Quan, Pao Quan and so on or how many sets one art had and so on.. I guess I am now reading your research threads for at least one and half year and they are pretty interesting indeed. And after all I could learn from you, you can say a lot but not that nothing is lost of Shaolin even if there are about 1500 forms. Something is missing.


    Kind regards,
    Xian

  6. #111
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    @Xian

    There is an evolution of the arts of course. There are existing links that can be traced, and "missing" links which can be (and have been) found to help continue that tracing as far back as possible. We are attempting to trace those links, rather than simply jump gaps.

    What sometimes makes things seem to be missing is the evolution they have gone through along with name-changes, history borrowing/rewriting/misunderstanding and all.

  7. #112
    Hi,

    I'm the author of the Poundthemortar site and just wanted to let you know I have corrected the information about Shi HengLin. Thanks for pointing that out.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuni View Post
    thank alot for the information so actually after shi hen lin is abbot mia xing do they all kill during the warlord war during yaun shi kai era and what happen with the other abbot . there is almost 7 generation gap from shi hen lin to shi xen xu . so probably almost all shaolin boxing actually loss?

    regards,
    Not sure what generation gap you are referring to. Some dates:

    Yuan Shikai died in 1916, before any of the following events.

    The burning of the temple under warlord Shi Yousan happened in 1928.

    Shi Henglin died in 1923, before the burning.

    Shi Miaoxing died in 1934, after the burning.

    Shi Zhenxu died in 1955, well after the burning.

    The generation difference between Shi Henglin and Shi Zhenxu is irrelevent, because Shi Zhenxu was of the 29th generation, while Shi Henglin (although older in age) was of the 35th generation.

    All this means is that in Shi Henglin's line of ordination, the monks took disciples sooner (35), whereas in Shi Zhenxu's line there are fewer over time, hence a fewer number of generations (29).

    Both Shi Henglin and Shi Zhenxu's lineage can be traced back master-by-master without a gap. My master's line comes from Shi Zhenxu, and we have the names of each monk in order back to Xueting Fuyu as the 1st gen. transmitting the Caodong school of Chan, and even further back to the 6 Chan patriarchs to Bodhidharma as 1st Chan patriarch, and if you want to press it, Bodhidharma's lineage as the 28th patriarch of the Dhyāna school is listed name-by-name in an unbroken line back to Śākyamuni Buddha himself, in the Platform Sutra of Huineng, including Vasubandhu (21st patriarch of Dhyāna and founder of the Yogācāra school) and Nāgārjuna (14th patriarch of Dhyāna and founder of the Mādhyamaka school).

    But counting 30-some generations from Xueting Fuyu as the beginning of the Caodong sect in Shaolin is enough.

    The Shaolin generations are a line of ordination however. Martial arts instruction has a lot of overlap, including lots of folk masters as well. So really, generation of ordination often has little to do with the transmission of martial arts, as each master may learn from a number of different monks and folk masters regardless of generation of ordination, which is a separate topic.

  9. #114
    thank you for your comprehensieve answer?
    do any body know from where come the black tiger form black tiger is one of the tiger in chinese mytology http://www.whats-your-sign.com/chine...ism-tiger.html

    wang leishen lineage( liuhe ziran) has this from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWyLHbjdwXQ

    indonesian chinese shantung shaolin also has this http://bookmoving.com/book/shantung-...ina_31612.html.

    although there form are different they have many similarity.

    Does black tiger has special meaning in henan shaolin?

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xian View Post
    @Rendahai

    Something most have been lost somehow. Otherwise why are you researching after original forms, tradtional ways to walk them, old master, how the differents systems really had been structured, like the relation between Hong Quan, Pao Quan and so on or how many sets one art had and so on.. I guess I am now reading your research threads for at least one and half year and they are pretty interesting indeed. And after all I could learn from you, you can say a lot but not that nothing is lost of Shaolin even if there are about 1500 forms. Something is missing.


    Kind regards,
    Xian
    Don't get me wrong, its not easy to find, but its not lost. All the techniques are preserved, but yeah the forms have changed and evolved. And to better understand the essence of the techniques I like to see how techniques are used in the different sects. The general level of the Wulin fraternity may have regressed, and forms go extinct al the time, but the best of them is always preserved in some way. Its something that needs work, but there are always a few dedicated people.

    I suppose if one travels to Shaolin now, it is not as shaolin should be, and in that way something is missing. But it can be rebuilt and rekindled, its not lost forever. There is always someone, somewhere who knows how.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuni View Post
    Does black tiger has special meaning in henan shaolin?


    In Shaolin Black Tiger means techniques which are hidden. The black is not so much the colour of the tiger but the fact that a Tiger is hidden in the darkness. When you position yourself so that the off hand prevents the opponent seeing or parrying the striking hand... This would be an example of a black tiger technique.

    We also have White tiger. These are techniques which are obvious. The attack directly with no deception or disguise. Often used are techniques which can strike slowly and still cause damage. They move slowly so are not perceived as a threat and are hidden in plane sight. Feints are also typical examples of White tiger strikes.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 02-05-2012 at 10:08 AM.

  12. #117
    thank you very much. do you also know the meaning of chin lung (green /coil dragon) form and mei hua these from is very common in chinese martial arts

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc38Hr6EqBo

  13. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    But it can be rebuilt and rekindled, its not lost forever. There is always someone, somewhere who knows how.
    Yeah with this I can agree, thanks

    Kind regards,
    Xian

  14. #119

    Ti Long Pao Quan

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFNJeYcfFgQ

    Rising Dragon Cannon Fist ? What about that set ? Any relation ?



    Kind regards,
    Xian

  15. #120
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    This video would be more relevant in the thread on Shaolin Xin Yi related sets.

    That set is attributed to Ji Longfeng (aka Ji Jike, 1588-1662) of Shanxi, which you can clearly see the style bears similarity to Xingyiquan and the Shaolin Xinyiquan material, both of which are said to have been influenced (created) by him.

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