Shaolin Tong Bi Quan

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hmm, well, the three vcds for Yi lu, Er lu, and San lu, don't all at match up to the standard Shaolin Xiao Tongbi Quan set at all.
These three sets are some totally different routines, they seem to be one complete routine if done together.

In his Shaolin Da Lu book, he called all three sections of the standard Xiao Tongbi Quan just the Shaolin Tongbi Quan Yi Lu set.
He shows a Tongbi Quan ER Lu set in the book, but it too doesn't match up to anything I have seen in these three VCDs; instead it is like the Da Tongbi Quan set.

So, I don't know what Xiao Tongbi Quan these three VCDs are showing. nor why it is called "xiao".
When I get the chance I will convert and edit to show the sets on YouTube.

Strange, but something seems familiar about his three VCD sets though.
Like I have seen them before under a different name somehow.

Maybe I saw some Wugulun school tongbi sets that are like these?

[LFJ]

thats what i was talking about. i havent seen the individual vcds, but on the performance vcd, i dont recognize these at all.

and the second road was in fact footage from the dahongquan sanlu. is the individual vcd different?

[Sal Canzonieri]

thats what i was talking about. i havent seen the individual vcds, but on the performance vcd, i dont recognize these at all.

and the second road was in fact footage from the dahongquan sanlu. is the individual vcd different?

Yes. the individual Er Lu was different that da hong quan san lu.
It looked more like a Pao Quan set.

[LFJ]

Maybe I saw some Wugulun school tongbi sets that are like these?

their stuff is sometimes hard to see, the way their body mechanics distort the form.

this one you posted of shi dejian on beams has him doing xiaotongbiquan at the beginning. you said it looks like a laohongquan set, but look closely. the first part is xiaotongbiquan yilu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT5H1...eature=related

[Sal Canzonieri]

their stuff is sometimes hard to see, the way their body mechanics distort the form.

this one you posted of shi dejian on beams has him doing xiaotongbiquan at the beginning. you said it looks like a laohongquan set, but look closely. the first part is xiaotongbiquan yilu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT5H1...eature=related

Yes, I see what you mean, thanks, I'll fix it.
Although, what I meant was how it moved was like Laohong quan. To me anyways. But, yep, your keen eye caught it again, cool!

[RenDaHai]

Hey Guys!

Just watched the LiuZhenHai 'xiaotongbi 1+2+3'.

Ok, this is really interesting!

first of all these three forms should be together as one.

Second, we all know Da TongBi right? As deyang does it?

Watch Liuzhenhais xiao tongbi yi lu again. It is Da tongbi quan!!! This may be a little difficult for you to see at first. but I can assure you. Keep watching through all 3 forms. YOu can see that the Da Tongbi set that many of us practice today (actually the most common shaolin form) is in fact an abreviation of this long set by liu zhen hai. Datongbi as deyang does it is mainly liuzhenhais yi lu but also contains some moves from er lo as well.

At first watch your gonna say 'what the hell is he talking about?!' but watch again and again and you will see it. It is the same series of applications (it helps I have about 5 versions of Datongbi under my belt so i can see it).

This is fascinating. It adds weight to the claim that liuzhenhai really has the oldest versions of forms. This is the only time I have seen this.

So His 1+2+3 are one form and is the set from which are modern Datongbi has been abreviated. I would suggest the modernDatongbi came from this set a very long time ago however.

This is really interesting, I will have to find his disciple to study this set.

[LFJ]

At first watch your gonna say 'what the hell is he talking about?!' but watch again and again and you will see it. It is the same series of applications (it helps I have about 5 versions of Datongbi under my belt so i can see it).

what the hell is he talking about?!

sorry, i dont really see it. i know several versions of datongbiquan as well. they do contain many of the same applications, but thats to be expected. its tongbiquan. but this set doesnt have many of the techniques from datongbiquan, and vice versa.

it also doesnt follow the same pattern or sequence in any way, there are just common individual techniques. except for the opening sequence which appears midway through datongbiquan, but it is also the opening sequence for xiaomeihuaquan and ditang meihuaquan, which are practically the same sets. but these are not tongbiquan.

watching it over and over only shows me that they are related, but not that they are the same set.

[RenDaHai]

Really don't see it?

Concentrate on Erlo. The erlo contains almost everystance of Datongbi. Even with the same ending kick sequence. The moves that are not contained in Erlo appear in yi lu. They even appear as the same short 2-3 move sequences as in da tongbi. Its difficult to see, especially because of the way its performed. But think of the short sequences.... Kick-pao quan-phoenix spreads wings, the drawing the bow posture, the wind through the ears-low attack.. well I can't describe the moves well but they are all there. A long time ago this was the same form i am sure. If they had this long form originally there would be no need for creating Da tongbi, it would also be copying heavily, it follows that Either Da tong bi is an abreviation of LZH 3 forms, or that the 3 forms are an extension of datongbi, either way it is from the same source.

[LFJ]

well, one problem is likely that i just have the performance vcd, not the individual ones. and on that vcd the erlu for tongbiquan is actually sanlu dahongquan. the editors apparently goofed.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Really don't see it?

Concentrate on Erlo. The erlo contains almost everystance of Datongbi. Even with the same ending kick sequence. The moves that are not contained in Erlo appear in yi lu. They even appear as the same short 2-3 move sequences as in da tongbi. Its difficult to see, especially because of the way its performed. But think of the short sequences.... Kick-pao quan-phoenix spreads wings, the drawing the bow posture, the wind through the ears-low attack.. well I can't describe the moves well but they are all there. A long time ago this was the same form i am sure. If they had this long form originally there would be no need for creating Da tongbi, it would also be copying heavily, it follows that Either Da tong bi is an abreviation of LZH 3 forms, or that the 3 forms are an extension of datongbi, either way it is from the same source.

Hmm, just for clarification's sake.

Let's say you are correct, then.

Liu Zhenhai's Xiao Tong Bi vcds are the expanded (original, maybe) version of Da Tong Bei.

Okay, then his book shows a Tongbi Quan Yi Lu set which is clearly a more defined version of all three sections of what most have called Xiao Tongbi Quan.

So, he has a full version of both:
-Da Tongbi (Xiao Tongbi Quan 1-3 vcds)
- Xiao Tongbi (Tongbi Quan Yi Lu book)

Also, his book has a really nice but different Tongbi Quan Er Lu set.
It's not like the Xiao and Da sets are at all.

It's not a long set, but different movements than the other two routines.
I don't think it is Nanyuang Tongbi Quan, since that is 3 sections and this Er Lu is one section.

When I finally get the chance, I will post Liu's three vcds on YouTube, so LFJ can compare them to other sets done by others.

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, one problem is likely that i just have the performance vcd, not the individual ones. and on that vcd the erlu for tongbiquan is actually sanlu dahongquan. the editors apparently goofed.

ok, I posted all three of these vcds on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNB8KPVpe8

So far, I haven't been able to see where Da Tongbi Quan is buried within.
These look like something different, even postures that aren't found in Da Tongbi Quan.

By the way, the Tongbi Quan Yi Lu set (3 sections) is EXACTLY the same in every way with Shi Yongxin's new book on Shaolin Tongbi Quan Yi Lu, and both these sets are the same exact thing as Tagou book's Xiao Tongbi Quan.

[RenDaHai]

Ok, I'll make it easy for you:

Please bear in mind that when he performs some intermediate stances are cut out which others may emphasize. If we could see it broken down we would see more similarities. ALso note that when i count numbers I count a complete move as one move, so the drawing a bow double punch is counted as 1 move. Gong bu triple punch is 1 move etc.

LIU ZHEN HAI FORMS:

YI LU:

Move 1, parry and punch off front hand. same as Deyangs Da tongbei move 3.

Moves 2+3+4, kick, parry over head punch followed by tiptoe phoenix spreads wings. This is the same sequence as in Deyangs Da tongbei moves 6+7+8. This sequence appears a lot.

Move 7, Gong Bu Xie xing. Appears in Da tong bei as move 15.

Move 13, Ding/xu bu crossed palms. Appears as both 11 and 23 in Deyangs Da tongbei quan.

Move 18, Wind through the ears, same as DTB 24. Notice in this form he attacks low followed by wind through the ears. I n DTB it is wind through the ears followed by the low attack. One is in gong bu, on is on one leg, small difference.

This is on first look, there may be more. above is just yi lu, Look at er lu for the rest of DTB moves...below.


ER LU:

Move 12+13+14: two kicks-Slap the floor in Pu bu. This is the same move as in DTB move 17+18+19. Deyang does it with tiger claws, some do it with fists, its the same move.

Move 16, cross switch palms folled by low block. Appears in DTB as move 13. In DTB the block is in pu bu, in this it is on one leg, but the palm switch is the same. In this case the difference between one leg and xu bu is small.

Move 18, slap the elbow in Ma Bu. This is a very characterisitic move of DTB, appears in all versions of the form as move 14.

Move 22, ma bu punch with parry over head. Appears also as move 22 in DTB, some versions use gong bu. The move 21-22 in this form is a similar piece of shou fa to the three strikes after pu bu slap the floor in most DTB. Stances are different but i think it represents the same bit.

Move 23, Xu bu with fists guarding, like a western boxer might hold his hands 100 yrs ago. This appears in DTB as move 5.

Move 24, double strike, appears in DTB as move 20.

Move 27+28, xu bu with zuo shan hands follwed by parry and punch off front hand. Move 2+3 in DTB.

Move 30, xu bu low block, appears in DTB move 13.

Move 33+34+35 same phoenix spreads wings sequence DTB 6+7+8.

Move 36+37, jump with ma bu parry follwed by drawing a bow double punch. This appears in DTB as move 9+10 (i count the double bow punch as 1 move).

Move 38 Ma bu slap elbow again, DTB 14.

Move 40, double push crossed palms, appears in some versions of DTB, but not Deyangs.

Move 41+42+43 Triple kicking sequence which appears at the end of most versions of DTB.

SAN LU:

San contains some similar moves, crossed palm in tiptoe, pu bu slap floor- double strike, drawing a bow double punch.

There are probably more similarities, but thats all I see for the moment. Without actually learning the form its hard to see. Clearly there are big differences, but given the nature of LZH's forms, I beleive this is an older version of DTB, or an interesting mid evolutionary stage. Da tong bei has always seemed strange to me as it doesn't go with the classic 3 form yi lu tong bei, and it is too short to represent a style in its own right. So this long form would really put it in context.

[LFJ]

okay, there are similarities, yes. they are tongbiquan sets. but i dont see how they are "the same set" just because they share the same movements, if they are all out of place and dont follow the same sequences, and have many techniques and sequences that dont appear in both. then they are clearly different sets of the same system.

just means they are related. perhaps these tongbiquan sets are older than the datongbiquan, or vice versa, and so share all of the same techniques. one could have been made by pulling from the other but they clearly arent the same sets.

almost every single one of those moves can be found in other sets as well. even some small sequences where they are linked together in the same way, such as the [slapkick + gongbu parry and punch + xubu phoenix spreads wings + mabu double punch drawing bow].

this exact sequence starts both xiaomeihuaquan and ditang meihuaquan. the xiaomeihuaquan set even starts with the same xubu double fist technique that precedes the sequence in the datongbiquan set, which isnt in these tongbiquan sets.

almost every one of those other moves can be found in various places within hongquan, paoquan, other tongbiquan sets, etc.. in fact there are many moves that appear in hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets but not in the datongbiquan set at all.

i think it may be logical to say one came from the other, but not that this set is datongbiquan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

okay, there are similarities, yes. they are tongbiquan sets. but i dont see how they are "the same set" just because they share the same movements, if they are all out of place and dont follow the same sequences, and have many techniques and sequences that dont appear in both. then they are clearly different sets of the same system.

just means they are related. perhaps these tongbiquan sets are older than the datongbiquan, or vice versa, and so share all of the same techniques. one could have been made by pulling from the other but they clearly arent the same sets.

almost every single one of those moves can be found in other sets as well. even some small sequences where they are linked together in the same way, such as the [slapkick + gongbu parry and punch + xubu phoenix spreads wings + mabu double punch drawing bow].

this exact sequence starts both xiaomeihuaquan and ditang meihuaquan. the xiaomeihuaquan set even starts with the same xubu double fist technique that precedes the sequence in the datongbiquan set, which isnt in these tongbiquan sets.

almost every one of those other moves can be found in various places within hongquan, paoquan, other tongbiquan sets, etc.. in fact there are many moves that appear in hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets but not in the datongbiquan set at all.

i think it may be logical to say one came from the other, but not that this set is datongbiquan.

I have to agree with LFJ here.

And really you (RenDaHai) already did agree with LFJ in that you basically said that this 3 road Tongbi Quan set of Liu Zhenhai appears to be the more complete and fuller set. And, perhaps that it is older than the Da Tongbi Quan set.

That would mean that, while they aren't the same set (meaning the 3 section set as an expanded version of the Da Tongbi), the Da Tongbi set seems to be a closely related set, perhaps even sharing the same roots as this bigger 3 road set.

Because of the specific sequencing of its postures and having postures unique to this 3 road set, you really can't say that it is simply an expanded version of Da Tongbi (though that would have been a nice and easy fix), the most that can be said is that they appear closely related and share some roots.

What is really weird to me is that the sections end with the Lao Hong Quan salute (Shoot the Wild Swan posture). I have never seen that in either of the Shaolin Xiao or Da Tongbi Quan sets. Only in Shaolin Lao Hong Quan and in Yellow River Da Hong Quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist).

This 3 road routine is much closer to Hong Quan / Pao Quan postures as well. It makes it look much more older in origin, and perhaps it is. Hence you see Da Tong Bi Quan in it, and by that nature, Xiao Tongbi Quan should be apparent within it as well (which Liu Zhenhai and Shi Yongxin both call Tongbi Quan Yi Lu).

If this 3 road set IS the older set, it really should be much more like TZ Chang Quan (which means related to Hong Quan and Pao Quan - Song to Ming times) than the later developed sets (Qing times). And indeed this 3 road set does appear to share those attributes.

Shi Yongxin did say that the movements from current standard Da Tongbi Quan set were what's evolved from people playing with the original early Song era Hantong Tongbi Quan that Shaolin had adopted.

So, it can be possible that Liu Zhenhai's 3 road set is also derived from the same Song era Hantong Tongbi Quan material, perhaps an older version, from which Da Tongbi was eventually developed from or developed in parallel with.

From what I see, I think that Xiao Tongbi Quan / Tongbi Quan Yi Lu is a newer Tongbi Quan, developed from Ape boxing and other Shaolin sets.
And, Da Tongbi Quan and this 3 Road Tongbi Quan (which Liu calls Xiao TB) was directly developed from Hantong Tongbi Quan.

(Note, not to confuse General Hantong Tongbi Quan with Hongtong Tongbei Quan from Shanxi province.)

Page 155 and 156 of Shaolin Encyc. (old version) has background info on Xiao Tongbei Quan (now called Yi Lu).
Page 172 has tiny bit of info on page 172.

[LFJ]

Page 155 and 156 of Shaolin Encyc. (old version) has background info on Xiao Tongbei Quan (now called Yi Lu).
Page 172 has tiny bit of info on page 172.

page 155's introduction to xiaotongbiquan basically only says that shaolin warrior monks combined the basics of xiaohongquan, dahongquan, and houquan to create it. then goes into the characteristics of the style. the rest of page 155 and 156 are just the poem and lyrics.

172 on datongbiquan only says that it was created on the basics of xiaotongbiquan and dahongquan. no more historical information on either.

this three road tongbiquan from liu zhenhai seems to be more closely related to the old hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets, than do the xiao and datongbiquan sets we're used to. as if it were created in parallel.