Shaolin Tong Bi Quan

[Sal Canzonieri]

page 155's introduction to xiaotongbiquan basically only says that shaolin warrior monks combined the basics of xiaohongquan, dahongquan, and houquan to create it. then goes into the characteristics of the style. the rest of page 155 and 156 are just the poem and lyrics.

172 on datongbiquan only says that it was created on the basics of xiaotongbiquan and dahongquan. no more historical information on either.

this three road tongbiquan from liu zhenhai seems to be more closely related to the old hongquan, paoquan, and luohanquan sets, than do the xiao and datongbiquan sets we're used to. as if it were created in parallel.

okay, I asked you to translate for that reason.

Most Qing dynasty created sets were developed as a reconstruction of Ming era Shaolin. After 1765, people came back to Shaolin and reintroduced martial arts after being mostly a place that most used for religious practices (I think around 1735 the Qing government was pushing Shaolin to stick with religion and drop their martial arts traditions.).
Hence, you see in the Shaolin encyc. that a lot of sets were developed in the later Qing dynasty from the remnants of the Ming era sets (Chang quan, pao quan, luohan quan, etc.; Rou Quan was still practiced by in secret by the eldest monks).

So, also you can see that this 3 road Tongbi Quan of Liu's looks to be something that the folk masters preserved from an earlier time, outside what was newly being developed at Shaolin itself.
That's why I think that it is a lot closer to much older Shaolin quan that existed before the later Qing era.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Since Shi Yongxin's book on Tongbi Quan Yi Lu is exactly the same as Liu Zhenhai's books showing this set using the same name (which others call Xiao Tongbi Quan):

THEN, if Shi Yongxin does an Er Lu book, it should be exactly the same as Liu's book that shows an Er Lu set (which is like Da Tongbi, but not like his 3 roads Xiao tongbi VCD series). Again, it's a very different set than people have usually seen, it is a lot like Luohan Quan. It's a very cool set, I hope that Shi Yongxin does a book on it. It is a much fuller version of Da Tongbi Quan.

I hope he does many more books, especially since I have all of the one he did so far.
He said he was going to do 365 sets, ending with the weapons sets.

Maybe someone can find out if he is planning on issuing some more soon!

I would be great to see books on Luohan Yi and Er Lu, Tongbi Er Lu, that's for sure!

[RenDaHai]

Hey Guys,

I probably have a slightly different view of what is a form from you guys. If you just mean the exact specific set of movements, then i see your point. But when i talk about a form I mean more than that, Every form is almost a substyle of shaolin in its own right. A form is not just a collection of techniques in a sequence, it has its own character, strategy, persona. When you practice one form enough you can understand something about the kung fu of the master who created that form. There is a lot more hidden in the form than just a few techniques. If it were just the collection of stances then there would be no need for the 700 odd forms in shaolin as most of the techniques are repeated many many times.

This Tongbei quan is unmistakeably the same style as Da tong bei. Da tong bei has always seemed out of place. Even if all its techniques are repeated elsewhere, DTB is different, but finally this is a sister form. It is certainly from the same style (and that style is not the same style as yi lu tongbei).

So I consider these the same form. I think if you knew the long one you would have no need of the other. (e.g If you know Dahong quan yi lu, then 4 lu by LZH is uneccessary. Its nice to know as it expands your knowledge of the specific style, but it doesn't contain anything new). So that is why I consider these the same form. Before you guys were saying it is unrelated to anything specific. But i think it is very closely related to DTB.

The ending stance is very interesting. I think it is more of a Date. I think forms in different Eras ended different ways. I don't htink it means it has to be related to the other forms that end with this stance, but it may date to the same era. Forms now adays tend to end in zuo shan, but before it was not a rule. Kan jia quan also tends to end with this stance.


On the books, I would REALLY like to know more about this Er lo tongbei quan by liuzhenhai. That sounds really interesting. He didn't do a VCD of it...... What other books did he relaese..... WHat MORE forms did he know?? The more I find out about him the more he seems to become the ultimate shaolin master of the last few decades.... and now I'll never get a chance to meet him :-(

By the way Yanzhuang said he had done enough books and wasn't preparing any others, so if there are more books in the Yongxin series expect them to be from different masters. (sorry to dissapaoint).


One more thing... Yong Wen Da shi referred to Yilu tong bi quan as 'mian zhang tong bi'.....?? I don't know much about shaolin mian zhang and have only ever seen one set ever, and i think that was another style of mian zhang imported into shaolin later rather than an old shaolin set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Guys,

I probably have a slightly different view of what is a form from you guys. If you just mean the exact specific set of movements, then i see your point. But when i talk about a form I mean more than that, Every form is almost a substyle of shaolin in its own right. A form is not just a collection of techniques in a sequence, it has its own character, strategy, persona. When you practice one form enough you can understand something about the kung fu of the master who created that form. There is a lot more hidden in the form than just a few techniques. If it were just the collection of stances then there would be no need for the 700 odd forms in shaolin as most of the techniques are repeated many many times.

This Tongbei quan is unmistakeably the same style as Da tong bei. Da tong bei has always seemed out of place. Even if all its techniques are repeated elsewhere, DTB is different, but finally this is a sister form. It is certainly from the same style (and that style is not the same style as yi lu tongbei).

So I consider these the same form. I think if you knew the long one you would have no need of the other. (e.g If you know Dahong quan yi lu, then 4 lu by LZH is uneccessary. Its nice to know as it expands your knowledge of the specific style, but it doesn't contain anything new). So that is why I consider these the same form. Before you guys were saying it is unrelated to anything specific. But i think it is very closely related to DTB.

I think that, from what you are saying here, we all really are saying the same thing in a different way.
I think that the three of us can at least agree that these sets were "cut from the same cloth", to put it another way. For sure they are related, closely.
Why? That's still to be learned. And the person that might be able to tell us has possibly died (maybe our questions would have perked up his spirit and he would have lasted a little longer, we'll never know).

The ending stance is very interesting. I think it is more of a Date. I think forms in different Eras ended different ways. I don't htink it means it has to be related to the other forms that end with this stance, but it may date to the same era. Forms now adays tend to end in zuo shan, but before it was not a rule. Kan jia quan also tends to end with this stance.

That's very possible, most of time this is true.

On the books, I would REALLY like to know more about this Er lo tongbei quan by liuzhenhai. That sounds really interesting. He didn't do a VCD of it...... What other books did he relaese..... WHat MORE forms did he know?? The more I find out about him the more he seems to become the ultimate shaolin master of the last few decades.... and now I'll never get a chance to meet him :-(

He published about 10 books, I have most of them. Each has at least one set that I have never seen before. Most have same sets as others but more transition movements shown.
yeah, I'd like to see the Er Lu Tongbi Quan somewhere else too.
That's why I was hoping that Shi Yongxin was going to do it in a future release of books. Why have an Yi Lu tongbi Quan and leave it at that or a San Lu Luohan and not show the Yi and Er Lu's?

By the way Yanzhuang said he had done enough books and wasn't preparing any others, so if there are more books in the Yongxin series expect them to be from different masters. (sorry to dissapaoint).

I think that they are going to be using different folk masters.
These books are way too deluxe and amazing to stop at these few. They are like teasers! they just make me want more!!!!

One more thing... Yong Wen Da shi referred to Yilu tong bi quan as 'mian zhang tong bi'.....?? I don't know much about shaolin mian zhang and have only ever seen one set ever, and i think that was another style of mian zhang imported into shaolin later rather than an old shaolin set.

OKAY, now that I find VERY significant historically! Because that would put things in perspective.
Being a 'Mian Zhang tongbi quan' would be placing the set (much like Shi Yongxin said that the original movements from Da Tongbi came from Hantong Tongbi material that was from early Song era times of Fu Ju's survey of masters and creation of Shaolin sets from this meeting.) during the times of the Song era masters meeting, since Mian Zhang was one citation made (specifically: "Jin Sheng's Mian Zhang Ji Fei (Face Palm Swiftly Flys) ")."Tongbi" just meant a type of long fist technique during that time, hence there would be a Jin Sheng's Mian Zhang and a Hantong's tongbi quan and even others.

So, Shaolin Da Tongbi and Liu Zhenhai Xiao Tongbi 1-3 Roads would be derived from Fu Ju's injection of (General) Hantong's Tongbi quan into the formation of early Song era Shaolin quan

(NOTE: in light of my following posts, then what was saying here is most relevant, in that if Liu's Xiao tongbi Quan ER lu is the exact same set as Tai Zu Chang Quan Er Lu, THEN, indeed these sets are derived from when TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu was created, during the time of Fu Ju and the masters meetings and the subsequent set creations.)

and

Shaolin Xiao Tongbi Quan and Liu Zhenhai / Shi Yongxin & Shi Yan Zhuang Yi Lu Tongbi Quan would be from that same situation, derived from Song era Jin Sheng's Mian Zhang tongbi quan (nowadays people translate that as Cotton Palm, but it was written as Face Palm, a movement that fits when Song TZ Chang Quan and other sets have a 'face slap" movement. This is also seen in Song era Yue Fei Ba Shou routines, there is always this Face Slap movement. It is also found in many things that are said to be historically related, for instance Chen Taiji Quan, Tong BEI Quan, Shaolin Ape Monkey Quan, some Ba Shan Fan sets, and more.

That would make a lot of sense to me, considering all the material out there about Fu Ju and the different masters meetings starting in 961 (3 meetings of 3 years each, 9 years total).

[Sal Canzonieri]

This was pointed out to me by my KF friend Johan:

This video labeled - Shaolin Luo Han Pu Shen Shi Ba Shou - Arhat Protect Body 18 Hands :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAaj0_r85mM

is basically the same set as the Shaolin Da Tongbei Quan.
Some movements are a little different, some missing and ends much sooner.
Compare to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSNB4ZNfs6k

This made me think:

If maybe this were the original version of it (as preserved in this lineage), then it should be shorter, 18 postures, which it is. It is should be missing the postures added from Ape-Monkey Boxing and other sets incorporated into Da Tongbi Quan.

Maybe this was the Luohan Quan core from which Da Tongbi Quan was developed from?

But, I remembered I had another video of the Luohan Pu Shen set, and it is different:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYQKuio8mVs

---------------

New development:

This set from the video link is embedded in the first third of Liu Zhenhai's Tongbi Quan Erlu set, which is shown in his Shaolin Da Lu book!
So, that would mean that his Er Lu is a more detailed Da Tongbi Quan set?

Liu's set from the book has a different salute that happens before the salute shown in Shi Yongxin's Da Tongbi Quan yellow book.

Man! This was like finding a skeleton key and it opening a bunch of hidden doors!

Once you start at the right place, Liu's Tongbi Quan Er Lu set is for sure the Da Tongbi Quan set, but with missing movements that fill in between the Shaolin and Tagou version's postures.
Liu's has 32 postures, and 46 movements!
Shaolin's has 27 postures and much less movements.

Well, another mystery solved, as far as what the Tongbi Quan sets in Liu's Shaolin Da Lu book are.
Xiao Tongbi Quan (74 postures / 100 movements!) = Yi lu Tongbi
and Da Tongbi Quan (32 postures / 46 movements) = Er lu Tongbi

I, at this point, feel that his book routines are the most complete.
You can easily see how they contain the necessary transition movements between the postures. Routine after routine.

Thanks Liu Zhenhai (from wherever you are watching).

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, now things are getting weirder!

My friend Johan, Shaolin teacher in Spain, translated the names of the postures from Liu Zhenhai's three Xiao Tongbi Quan vcds.
AND I discovered that the ER LU set on the vcd is almost identical to the Tai Zu Chang Quan ER LU set postures named in the lost routines section of the Shaolin Encyclopedia!!!!!
The postures not named as still there, just Liu uses a different way of saying the same thing.

(I made bold the postures that are exactly the same in this Er Lu as in TZ Chang Quan ER Lu and they are in the exact same sequence too! Whatever is not bold, Liu uses a different way to say it. A few postures (about 4-5) are missing in Liu's ER Lu set, but almost the whole routine is identical! Now we can see what this long lost Shaolin set looked like! I wonder if the Yi and San Lu are like other TZ sets? This San Lu is not at all like the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan San Lu set, except for the first posture.)

Here's Johan's translation of the 3 sets (I adjusted some misspellings, etc):

Shaolin Xiao TongBi Quan - Liu Zhenhai VCDs

YiLu

1. 童子拜佛 Tóngzi bài fó Child worships the Buddha
2. 转身一拳 zhuǎn shēn yī Quan Turn body one fist
3. 侧脚探马捶 Cè jiao tàn ma chuí lateral foot explore horse hammer
4. 五花束身 wu hua shu shen 5 flowers bind the body
5. 弓步冲拳 gong bu chong quan gong bu rush fist
6. 左侧脚 Zuo cè jiao left lateral foot
7. 蝎子尾右 Xíezi wei yòu scorpion tail right
8. 洛步斜行 luò bù xie xing descending step slanted step
9. 转身冲天炮 zhuan shen chong tian pao turn body rush heaven cannon
10. 双?手 shuang liao/ca shou double sweep/leave hand
11. 转身 zhuan shen turn body
12. 迎面捶 ying mian chui face to face hammer
13. 转身单?手 zhuan shen dan gǎo?Shou turn body single ? hand
14. 上步枪手 shang bu qiang shou step forward spear hand
15. 退步十字手 tui bu shize shou step back cross hands
16. 上步冲天炮 shang bu chong tian pao step forward rush heaven cannon
17. 转身扳拳 zhuan shen ban quan turn body pull out fist
18. 猿猴束身 yuan hou shu shen ape monkey binds body
19. 插花十字手 cha hua shize shou insert flower cross hands
20. 起身碰腿 qi shen pèng tui rise body bump leg
21. 怀中抱月 huai zhong bao yue chest center embraces moon
22. 猿猴摘桃 yuan hou zhai tao ape monkey plucks peach
23. 双开弓 shuang kai gong double open bow
24. 下阴捶 xia yin chui down yin hammer
25. 三崩手 san bēng shou 3 collapse hands
26. 提手捶 di shou chui carry hands hammer
27. 冲右肘 chong you zhou rush right elbow
28. 肘顶七星 yun ding qi xing cloud over peak seven stars
29. 单鞭 dan bian single whip
30. 五花坐山 wu hua zuo shan 5 flowers sit on mountain
31. 童子拜佛 tong zi fen fu child prays to buddha

erlu

1. 童子拜佛 Tóngzi bài fó child prays to buddha
2. 转身冲天炮 zhuan shen chong tian pao turn body rush heaven cannon
3. 双?手 shuang lou Shou double pulling hands
4. 转身捶 zhuan shen chui turn body hammer
5. 迎面捶 ying mian chui face to face hammer
6. 转身单?手 zhuan shen dan jian? shou turn body single donating? Hand
7. 右侧脚 you cè jiao right lateral foot
8. 左侧脚 Zuo cè jiao left lateral foot
9. 斜行式 xie xing shi slanted step posture
10. 转身崩腿 zhuan shen beng tui turn body toppling leg
11. 五花束身 wu hua shu shen 5 flowers bind body
12. 转身一掌 zhuan shen yi zhang turn body 1 palm
13. 退步一掌 tui bu yi zhang step back 1 palm
14. 左侧脚 Zuo cè jiao left lateral foot
15. 蝎子尾右侧脚 xie-zi wei you ce jiao scorpion tail right lateral foot
16. 单叉式 dan cha shi single fork/insert posture
17. 起身连三拳 qi shen lian San quan rise body connect 3 fists
18. 交五花 jiāo wu hua intersecting 5 flowers
19. 亮支羽式 liàng zhi yu shi Show raised feather posture
20. 转身双捶 zhuan shen shuang chong chui turn body double rush hammers
21. 双分架 shuang fen jia double divide frame
22. 转?撑 zhuan ? cheng turn ? stab
23. 转身左抓提 zhuan shen zuo zhua di turn body left grab (w claw) lift/carry
24. 转身右抓提 Zhuan shen you zhua di turn body right grab (w claw) lift/carry
25. 探马拳 Tan ma quan explore horse fist
26. 连步一捶 lian bu yi chui connect step one hammer
27. 枪拳束身 qiang quan shu shen spear fist bind body
28. 起身双出捶 qi shen shuang qu chui Rise Body double leave hammer
29. 倒步 dao bu reverse step,
30. 斜行 xie xing slanted row
31. 起身?虎式 qi shen kua hu shi rise body stride Tiger posture
32. 上步一拳 shang bu yi quan advance step one fist
33. 退步连环拳 tui bu lian huán quan step back connected loop fist
34. 左右摆莲 zuo you bai lian left right swing lotus
35. 二起脚 er qi jiao two rising feet
36. 落底 探马拳 Luo di tan ma quan fall on bottom explore horse fist
37. 五花束身 wu hua shu shen 5 flowers bind body
38. 转身砸拳 zhuan shen za quan turn body smash fist
39. 双手开弓 shuang shou kai gong double hands open the bow
40. 转身裏 撑架 zhuan shen lǐ cheng jia turn body inside Stab frame
41. 转身双推掌 zhuan shen shuang tui zhang turn body double push palms
42. 右侧脚 you ce jiao right lateral foot
43. 蝎子尾旋风脚 xiezi wei xuan feng jiao scorpion tail whirlwind foot
44. 拉弓式 la gong shi shoot bow posture
45. 童子拜佛 tongzi fen fo child prays to buddha

sanlu

1. 童子拜佛 Tóngzi bài fó child worships buddha
2. 转身双枪 zhuan shen shuang qiang shou turn body double spear hand
3. 退步十字手 tui bu shize shou step back cross hands
4. 上步砸拳 shang bu za quan step up smash fist
5. 转身冲天炮 zhuan shen chong tian pao turn body rush heaven cannon
6. 白猴洗脸 bai hou xǐ liǎn white monkey washes face
7. 转身一捶 zhuan shen yi chui turn body one hammer
8. 迎面捶 yingmian chui face to face /headlong hammer
9. 上步连三捶 shang bu lian san chui step up connect 3 hammers
10. 转身单叉 zhuan shen dan cha turn body single fork
11. 起身双捶 qi shen shuang chui rise body double hammers
12. 转身右侧脚 zhuan shen you ce jiao turn body right lateral foot
13. 上步双推掌 shang bu shuang tui zhang step up double push palms
14. 虎步束身 hu bu shu shen tiger step bind body
15. 白猴洗脸 bai hou xi lian white monkey washes face
16. 转身上冲拳 zhuan shen shang chong quan turn body upper rush fist
17. 束身一拳 shu shen yi quan bind body one punch
18. 里扫腿 li sao tui inside sweep kick
19. 起身迎面 qi shen yingmian ? Rise body headlong ?
20. 原地一拳 yuán di yi quan level ground one punch
21. 外摆脚 wai bai jiao outside swing foot
22. 拉弓架 la gong jia pull bow frame
23. 坐山架 zuoshan jia sit on the mountain frame
24. 童子拜佛 tongzi fen fo child prays to buddha


Review the video of Liu's 3 sets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNB8KPVpe8

Now it makes sense why LFJ and I thought it was more related to Lao Hong Quan and so on, and why the sets looked so familiar to me: it is because these sets are from Shaolin TZ Chang Quan system!

And, other Chinese researchers have observed that Shaolin TZ Chang Quan, Hpng Quan, and Pao Quan were the source of Tongbi (and later Tongbei) Quan.

So, what does this mean about Shaolin Tongbi Quan?

Rendahai here pointed out that these three sets from Liu contain all the movements from the Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan sets.
Well, that would mean that the Xiao and Da sets were also derived from TZ Chang Quan, as some people's research has shown.
(and he already documented the better known Xiao and Da Tongbi Quan in his Shaolin Da Lu book, as Tongbi Quan Yi and Er Lu sets).

(By the way, the lost routines section of the Shaolin Encyc. has a bunch more Tongbi Quan sets described, but they are very unlike any of these Shaolin Tongbi Quan sets we have been talking about so far)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Compare Liu's Xiao Tongbi Quan Er Lu VCD set above to lyrics to the following TZ Chang Quan ER Lu (you can see that they match up!):

Er Lu Shaolin Chang Quan (2nd Road Shaolin Long Fist – Tai Zu)

1. Zhuan Shen Chong Tian Pao = Turn body Rush-toward Sky Cannon
2. Shuang Lou shou = both hug-pull hands
3. Zhuan shen chui – turn body hammer
4. Yin-Mian chui = face to face hammer
5. Zhuan shen yi chang = turn body one palm
6. You cai jiao = right trampling foot
7. Zuo cai jiao = left trampling foot
8. Xie xing beng toi = slanting shape stretch leg
9. Xiao su shen = small tighten body
10. Ke xiao-toi = knock/bump small-leg (calf kick)
11. Tui bu yi chang = back step one palm
12. Jin bu you chang = forward step right palm
13. Zuo cai jiao = left trampling foot
14. Zhuan shen you cai jiao = Turn body right trampling foot
15. Yue bu dan cha = leaping step single fork/branch
16. Lian san chui = connected 3 hammers
17. Jiao wu hua = Intersect 5 flowers
18. Liang-chi shi = Show wing position
19. Shuang tuo zhong = Both lift/support with palms the bell-clock (pendulum)
20. Shuang fen-pi = both apart split
21. Zuo quo shi = left wrap position
22. Shuang cheng zhou = both support/prop up elbows
23. Zuo zhua ti = left grasp+lift
24. You zhua ti = right grasp+lift
25. Dan yun ding = single cloud touch on head (peak/top)
26. You da chui = right strike hammer
27. Jia-qi chui = set up/erect lift hammer
28. Bao quan su shen = embrace/wrap fist close body
29. Shuang chu chui = both exits hammer
30. Dao bu = reverse (empty) step
31. Xie xing = slanted shape
32. Hai di pao = ocean bottom cannon
33. Kua hu shi = stride tiger position
34. Shang bu yi chui = lift-forward step one hammer
35. Tui bu yi chui = backward step one hammer
36. You yi chui = again one hammer
37. Shou bu yi chui = trap/gather step one hammer
38. Zuo bai lian = Left wave lotus
39. You bai lian = right wave lotus
40. Er qi jiao = two lift feet
41. Shan men pao = flash gate cannon
42. Wu hua shou = five flower hand
43. Xiao su shen = small close body
44. Ke xiao-toi = bump/knock small leg (calf)
45. Zhuan shen za chui = turn body bang hammer
46. Shuang shou kai gong = both hands open bow
47. Xiang you guo = towards right wrap
48. Shaung Cheng Zhou = both stretch elbows
49. Shuang fen pi = both apart split
50. Zhuan shen tui chang = turn body push palm
51. You cai jiao = right trampling foot
52. Xie-zi chi-wei – scorpion wing-tail
53. Xuan feng jiao = tornado feet
54. La gong shi = Pull bow position

[LFJ]

all i can say is thats pretty amazing! they match up exactly. same set.

now just why didnt these guys ever get together and compare what they had and straighten everything out? i'm sure they would have uncovered so much more together.

its kinda ridiculous how this is being done by non-chinese outside of the motherland, isnt it?

[Sal Canzonieri]

all i can say is thats pretty amazing! they match up exactly. same set.

now just why didnt these guys ever get together and compare what they had and straighten everything out? i'm sure they would have uncovered so much more together.

its kinda ridiculous how this is being done by non-chinese outside of the motherland, isnt it?

That's what I am amazed about myself! I just can't fathom that they hadn't discussed this amongst themselves, especially since I'm sure that they spoke when Shi DeQian was putting together the Shaolin Encyclopedia. He went traveling all over China and looked at all the hand copied Shaolin manuals that different lineages still possessed.

Well, at this point, I think that people in China should be talking to us so that people can get to the bottom of what is what.

okay, so Liu's VCDs are either misnamed, or the material is really from another source.

Liu's Xiao Tongbi Quan Er Lu set (why are they using "xiao" for these sets? Other than because they are indeed short sets?) clearly is the same set as this TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set (both Er Lu, weird).
Okay then, what are the Yi Lu and San Lu sets from?
So far I haven't been able to match up these sets, but they still seem to be familiar looking for some reason.

[LFJ]

well, unless they do know, but purposely obscure the material- still leaving just enough hints for those of us keen and enthusiastic enough to bother figuring it out. what fun would it be otherwise?

[Royal Dragon]

That's what I am amazed about myself! I just can't fathom that they hadn't discussed this amongst themselves, especially since I'm sure that they spoke when Shi DeQian was putting together the Shaolin Encyclopedia. He went traveling all over China and looked at all the hand copied Shaolin manuals that different lineages still possessed.

Well, at this point, I think that people in China should be talking to us so that people can get to the bottom of what is what.

okay, so Liu's VCDs are either misnamed, or the material is really from another source.

Liu's Xiao Tongbi Quan Er Lu set (why are they using "xiao" for these sets? Other than because they are indeed short sets?) clearly is the same set as this TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set (both Er Lu, weird).
Okay then, what are the Yi Lu and San Lu sets from?
So far I haven't been able to match up these sets, but they still seem to be familiar looking for some reason.

Reply]
These look familiar to me as well. I suspect I have something similar in my video archives. Maybe something from Jamie's Tai Tzu system? Maybe it's just because they have so much of the same flavor as Lao Hong, and Shaolin da hong?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Okay, just to complicate things even further, there is a new Liu Zhen Hai VCD out,
it is called Tongbi Quan, and it is not the same as the three ones we have been discussing.

It is demonstrated by the bald guy with beard (name escapes me at moment).

少林通臂拳-教学与実戦

AND

to top off the confusion there is another new one (same demonstrator), hah ha:

少林朝陽拳-教学与実戦

I haven't seen neither of these in stores in Chinatown NYC where I got the rest of his VCDs from.

[LFJ]

his name is shi xingsen (释行森).

on the demonstration vcd that shows all of the sets for which they have individual vcds, he demonstrates "tongbiquan" which is just the datongbiquan set. and the 朝阳拳 vcd is the standard chaoyangquan set.

this is the full video for chaoyangquan, with "apps".
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTAxOTc2NjEy.html

unless these vcds you're talking about are actually new and not just "new"...

[Sal Canzonieri]

his name is shi xingsen (释行森).

on the demonstration vcd that shows all of the sets for which they have individual vcds, he demonstrates "tongbiquan" which is just the datongbiquan set. and the 朝阳拳 vcd is the standard chaoyangquan set.

this is the full video for chaoyangquan, with "apps".
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTAxOTc2NjEy.html

unless these vcds you're talking about are actually new and not just "new"...

Thanks for the name reminder.

These two VCDs were the last two they made, I don't see them on CMAOD nor at Plum either. I haven't seen them in NYC either. I didn't have the demo VCD, since I had most of the other vcds. Well, I guess I need to find these, just to be complete.

So, if this is Da Tongbi, then it is Tongbei ER LU in Liu's book. His forms shown in the books are very detailed and so much more complete than any of their videos. Weird. Well, the videos go to the general public, whereas the books are for people that are more serious.
One of his Shaolin books is all over the Chinese used books sites right now, it has 5 Pao Quan sets detailed in it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

So, now that what's one Liu Zhenhai's Luohan Quan Vcds is figured out, we're still left with the final mystery of what these Tongbi Quan sets are.

Wish I can find something more about set 1 and set 3.

At least knowing that set 2 is Shaolin Chang Quan Er Lu points to something I hope.

I want to know what this means?