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Thread: There is no such thing as structure

  1. #1

    There is no such thing as structure

    Yup, there is no such thing as structure in WCK.

    The ultimate of WCK is comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action.


    Similar to water, there is no structure but flexflow.


    So, why is it structure becomes popular?

    1, because WCner cant handle the flexflow at the begining, thus a fix structure is use as an aid or intermediate tool to explain and cultivate a certain fix point's force vectors execution.

    Thus, keeping a certain structure is actually become a self-hinderance to advance art of daily reality.


    2, mimic-ing other southern style which is no WCK such as SMT unknowingly.

    3, mimic-ing Taiji teaching aids while un aware of Taiji also has no structure.


    Thus, if you think you are going to learn about structure in SLT/SNt and that structure is going to do magic for you. Well, sorry, you walk a mislead path.

    Certainly, you might argue with me that putting your body behind your elbow.....ect will give you more power .... structure power.....

    Sure, but those are not the flexflow, that structure is only as good as the strenght of your opponents. if your opponents has more power, you cant stance a chance. Why? because this type of strcuture is based on the stronger the opposition force win.

    See, in reality, there are three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve.

    Most 95% of people know only the resistance and the with draw, those are stuff within the realm of more power will win. as for the dissolve, that is the entering into the flexflow. until dissolve is known. there is no flexflow and thus default back to who is strong who win.



    "comes accept goes return " prerequisite is dissolve state. and not resistance and or withdraw, withdrawing is not accept resisting is not return.



    What do you think?
    Last edited by Hendrik; 10-20-2009 at 09:29 PM.

  2. #2
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    Some good points Hendrik. But don't you want to be able apply all states depending on the situation? Flexflow seems a bit passive to me, maybe I don't understand how you would use it in most situations. How does it square with "taking the initiative"?

    Agree with you 100% about structure. We are still flesh and bone. We can only support so much incoming force before something will give.

    How does resistance, withdrawal and dissolving transition into each other?

  3. #3
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    In reference to the content as I understand it...
    Simple answer... I think that the WCK structure is more flexible than people will admit. However, there is a structure because in WCK isn't an anything goes style.

    When I talk about WCK principles, I talk about them as preferences for or tendencies towards particular behaviors/techniques. I believe that the notion of structure comes from the tendencies in technique and stance that reveal the principles. In that sense there there is a basic structure or way of executing techniques.

    I see higher levels of WCK as being a person who understands the tendencies and breaks the rules judiciously. In that sense, I believe that there is no structure.


    A practical example.
    Early on, I learned that I had to adapt. When I first started sparring my kung fu brother and I would meet in the center of the floor and essentially get into a chi sao battle. We learned quickly that we needed to stop, "playing Wing Chun," if we intended to do any serious damage to each other.

    Later, I learned that when I was faced with a rigid Wing Chun structure that I could show someone who hadn't made the leap away from rigidity that I wanted to, "play Wing Chun," only to switch and devastate them.
    Last edited by HumbleWCGuy; 10-21-2009 at 04:17 AM.

  4. #4
    IMHO, your essay contains what is taught by "來留去送" (comes accept goes return) and "卸力" (dissolving incoming force), and also
    Wing Chun's 忌 (taboo) of 斗力 (direct force competition)

    This is clear especially in this extract from your essay:
    "as for the dissolve, that is the entering into the flexflow. until dissolve is known. there is no flexflow and thus default back to who is strong who win."

    IMHO, however structure is important, for example, understanding why
    and how, when two person touch hands, and one is unable to exert
    force on the other effectively is important. Grandmaster Chu Song Tin's lectures
    on Siu Nim Tao structure is especially good in explaining this, in my humble view.
    "In fighting, the hand you can see will not hurt you, the hand you cannot see, will hurt you." - Grandmaster Gary Lam

  5. #5
    Hendrik,

    I disagree. I think structure or Ying, is very important. In wing chun I think it helps define who and what we are. Dissolving energy as it comes in, comes from having structure. That doesn't mean we don't harmonize with the opponent and use flow.

  6. #6
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    I agree with Hendrick about structure. Structure is a noun, it is static and unmoving. When done wrong one's structure collapses, this implies that it is brittle and subject to being overcome by force.

    The problem as I see it is that wing chun is a verb, not a noun. It is a dance between two people with the intent to hit each other. Nothing static here. I'm not sure I like the word freeflow but for now it is a much better description of what you wish to accomplish than structure or rooting or setting anchors.

  7. #7
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    When fighting from a bridge, without structure the opponent can just run right through you. Tai chi talks about the "needle wrapped in cotton" internal structure or peng jin.


    In wing chun there is static structure (feels like fighting a wall when on the receiving end), and dynamic flexible flow structure (no direct contact point can be felt on the receiving end).
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 10-21-2009 at 08:07 AM.

  8. #8
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    A building has to have structure (to hold itself up) and flex (so it can sway in the wind). But a building is the same as a branch - if it flexes too much, it breaks/cracks.

    In fighting (all fighting), there has to be (body) structure to support the motions and deliver the force (like pushing a car/throwing a cross). This is moreso that the flex, but IMO, this 'flex' allows a change of direction, movement or perhaps an ability to adapt.

    Wing Chun has structure for sure. The analogy of being like water is just as simple: water can't stand up on its own like a building.
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  9. #9
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    Hendrik is correct.

    In the end, there is no structure - we just change in accord of the moment.

    Structure is just a useful tool, but when you've attained it, its automatic. Its certainly not fixed. It can be contained in many shapes...so it is not just how a system looks.

    Just like a boat that crosses over the water, you don't need that boat anymore.

    Vessels are the martial arts systems. The size, shape, build, weight, etc, determines the use of it. But underlying is how it is used.

    Martial arts systems are used to teach structure, and structure is to teach the organ system and their respective souls, and then all is empty.

  10. #10
    Scroll down, from what I have learn, that is exactly how I train my flexflow according to Yik Kam's SLT teaching from the redboat. That is the first post of SLT.

    http://web.mit.edu/qigong/global.htm


    How is this practice result in a flex flow? or power at all?

    any ideas? what do you think? can this practice get me any where?

  11. #11
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    I would like some clarification, and some practical examples of this "no structure" Hendrik. I am seeing too much flowery language, which I think is preventing everyone from being on the same page.

    Tell me how your "no structure" plays out in a UFC fight.
    Last edited by HumbleWCGuy; 10-21-2009 at 12:56 PM.

  12. #12
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    In WC training, one of the the first things we are taught is structure, or 'ying'. In a fight, we all have to start from somewhere - a reference point. Setting up the strongest structure in space at that moment gives us the strongest reference point to start from. Now, that does not mean that we hold onto that point for dear life either once things get rolling, but we all start from somewhere.

    If my opponent can't deal with my first move, or my 'ying' (structure) then I am already on the winning side. If they can harmonize or overtake my ying, well then I move to another shape (flow).

    So, to say there is no structure in WC is to say one doesn't know basics of WC system. I would agree with someone that says you don't get stuck in fixed shapes, or that you should understand the ability to change as needed. But, that doesn't mean one should give up the initial idea of ying! What if you find yourself being crashed or lost, how do you get back to a safe point to fight from? You find your ying again and reastablish your identity! Now you have safe point of reference to move from again.

    An example could be a bird flying during a strong windstorm. If you have no structure, you will get blown all about and carried away with the wind. But to truly survive the storm, you will have to set up your pont of reference with the ground or tree limb, or be blown away. If you chose to endlessly flow, you'll be carried away for sure.

    Robert said "In the end, there is no structure - we just change in accord of the moment.". I see what he is saying, but without structure, we have nothing to change to or from. We engage with structure, we neutralize with structure, we destroy with structure. while we also have things like flow, crash, destroy, etc we always start and end with Ying.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Scroll down, from what I have learn, that is exactly how I train my flexflow according to Yik Kam's SLT teaching from the redboat. That is the first post of SLT.

    http://web.mit.edu/qigong/global.htm


    How is this practice result in a flex flow? or power at all?

    any ideas? what do you think? can this practice get me any where?
    How does sleeping while standing up help you do anything regarding flow if you don't have an opponent?
    The only place this practice can get you is on the floor when you nod off

  14. #14
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    struc⋅ture  /ˈstrʌktʃər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [struhk-cher] Show IPA noun, verb, -tured, -tur⋅ing.

    –noun
    1. mode of building, construction, or organization; arrangement of parts, elements, or constituents: a pyramidal structure.
    2. something built or constructed, as a building, bridge, or dam.
    3. a complex system considered from the point of view of the whole rather than of any single part: the structure of modern science.
    4. anything composed of parts arranged together in some way; an organization.
    5. the relationship or organization of the component parts of a work of art or literature: the structure of a poem.
    6. Biology. mode of organization; construction and arrangement of tissues, parts, or organs.
    7. Geology. a. the attitude of a bed or stratum or of beds or strata of sedimentary rocks, as indicated by the dip and strike.
    b. the coarser composition of a rock, as contrasted with its texture.

    8. Chemistry. the manner in which atoms in a molecule are joined to each other, esp. in organic chemistry where molecular arrangement is represented by a diagram or model.
    9. Sociology. a. the system or complex of beliefs held by members of a social group.
    b. the system of relations between the constituent groups of a society.
    c. the relationship between or the interrelated arrangement of the social institutions of a society or culture, as of mores, marriage customs, or family.
    d. the pattern of relationships, as of status or friendship, existing among the members of a group or society.

    10. the pattern of organization of a language as a whole or of arrangements of linguistic units, as phonemes, morphemes or tagmemes, within larger units.

    verb 11. to give a structure, organization, or arrangement to; construct a systematic framework for.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    I would like some clarification, and some practical examples of this "no structure" Hendrik. I am seeing too much flowery language, which I think is preventing everyone from being on the same page.

    Tell me how your "no structure" plays out in a UFC fight.


    Robert has described clearly what is no structure above.

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