There is no such thing as structure

[Hendrik]

Yup, there is no such thing as structure in WCK.

The ultimate of WCK is comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action.


Similar to water, there is no structure but flexflow.


So, why is it structure becomes popular?

1, because WCner cant handle the flexflow at the begining, thus a fix structure is use as an aid or intermediate tool to explain and cultivate a certain fix point's force vectors execution.

Thus, keeping a certain structure is actually become a self-hinderance to advance art of daily reality.


2, mimic-ing other southern style which is no WCK such as SMT unknowingly.

3, mimic-ing Taiji teaching aids while un aware of Taiji also has no structure.


Thus, if you think you are going to learn about structure in SLT/SNt and that structure is going to do magic for you. Well, sorry, you walk a mislead path.

Certainly, you might argue with me that putting your body behind your elbow.....ect will give you more power .... structure power.....

Sure, but those are not the flexflow, that structure is only as good as the strenght of your opponents. if your opponents has more power, you cant stance a chance. Why? because this type of strcuture is based on the stronger the opposition force win.

See, in reality, there are three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve.

Most 95% of people know only the resistance and the with draw, those are stuff within the realm of more power will win. as for the dissolve, that is the entering into the flexflow. until dissolve is known. there is no flexflow and thus default back to who is strong who win.



"comes accept goes return " prerequisite is dissolve state. and not resistance and or withdraw, withdrawing is not accept resisting is not return.



What do you think?

[CFT]

Some good points Hendrik. But don't you want to be able apply all states depending on the situation? Flexflow seems a bit passive to me, maybe I don't understand how you would use it in most situations. How does it square with "taking the initiative"?

Agree with you 100% about structure. We are still flesh and bone. We can only support so much incoming force before something will give.

How does resistance, withdrawal and dissolving transition into each other?

[HumbleWCGuy]

In reference to the content as I understand it...
Simple answer... I think that the WCK structure is more flexible than people will admit. However, there is a structure because in WCK isn't an anything goes style.

When I talk about WCK principles, I talk about them as preferences for or tendencies towards particular behaviors/techniques. I believe that the notion of structure comes from the tendencies in technique and stance that reveal the principles. In that sense there there is a basic structure or way of executing techniques.

I see higher levels of WCK as being a person who understands the tendencies and breaks the rules judiciously. In that sense, I believe that there is no structure.


A practical example.
Early on, I learned that I had to adapt. When I first started sparring my kung fu brother and I would meet in the center of the floor and essentially get into a chi sao battle. We learned quickly that we needed to stop, "playing Wing Chun," if we intended to do any serious damage to each other.

Later, I learned that when I was faced with a rigid Wing Chun structure that I could show someone who hadn't made the leap away from rigidity that I wanted to, "play Wing Chun," only to switch and devastate them.

[-木叶-]

IMHO, your essay contains what is taught by "來留去送" (comes accept goes return) and "卸力" (dissolving incoming force), and also
Wing Chun's 忌 (taboo) of 斗力 (direct force competition)

This is clear especially in this extract from your essay:
"as for the dissolve, that is the entering into the flexflow. until dissolve is known. there is no flexflow and thus default back to who is strong who win."

IMHO, however structure is important, for example, understanding why
and how, when two person touch hands, and one is unable to exert
force on the other effectively is important. Grandmaster Chu Song Tin's lectures
on Siu Nim Tao structure is especially good in explaining this, in my humble view.

[TAYLOR1]

Hendrik,

I disagree. I think structure or Ying, is very important. In wing chun I think it helps define who and what we are. Dissolving energy as it comes in, comes from having structure. That doesn't mean we don't harmonize with the opponent and use flow.

[m1k3]

I agree with Hendrick about structure. Structure is a noun, it is static and unmoving. When done wrong one's structure collapses, this implies that it is brittle and subject to being overcome by force.

The problem as I see it is that wing chun is a verb, not a noun. It is a dance between two people with the intent to hit each other. Nothing static here. I'm not sure I like the word freeflow but for now it is a much better description of what you wish to accomplish than structure or rooting or setting anchors.

[stonecrusher69]

Yup, there is no such thing as structure in WCK.

The ultimate of WCK is comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action.


Similar to water, there is no structure but flexflow.


So, why is it structure becomes popular?

1, because WCner cant handle the flexflow at the begining, thus a fix structure is use as an aid or intermediate tool to explain and cultivate a certain fix point's force vectors execution.

Thus, keeping a certain structure is actually become a self-hinderance to advance art of daily reality.


2, mimic-ing other southern style which is no WCK such as SMT unknowingly.

3, mimic-ing Taiji teaching aids while un aware of Taiji also has no structure.


Thus, if you think you are going to learn about structure in SLT/SNt and that structure is going to do magic for you. Well, sorry, you walk a mislead path.

Certainly, you might argue with me that putting your body behind your elbow.....ect will give you more power .... structure power.....

Sure, but those are not the flexflow, that structure is only as good as the strenght of your opponents. if your opponents has more power, you cant stance a chance. Why? because this type of strcuture is based on the stronger the opposition force win.

See, in reality, there are three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve.

Most 95% of people know only the resistance and the with draw, those are stuff within the realm of more power will win. as for the dissolve, that is the entering into the flexflow. until dissolve is known. there is no flexflow and thus default back to who is strong who win.



"comes accept goes return " prerequisite is dissolve state. and not resistance and or withdraw, withdrawing is not accept resisting is not return.



What do you think?

Good post I think you answered your own questions about structure and what you call the flex flow. What I call empty or a flowing structure one that is motion like water. Structure as you said is a begiining not the end alll be all. even flex-flow is not the end. One must learn how to crawl before one can walk.

[kung fu fighter]

Here is a gentle man demoing no structure water flexflow, comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action, and three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

[Hendrik]

Here is a gentle man demoing no structure water flexflow, comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action, and three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

What is the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve?

[Yoshiyahu]

who really knows the music of flow?

Well what is flow. To flow you need Sung. With out sung there is no flow. To flow is to be like endless river which pounds a rock to dust. One needs to Sung the Waist to have power. But what is Flow Hendrik...Is it not like water that continues its journey uninterrupted and never stopping. flow is motion that is unbroken continuity. It is like flowing water. Can you catch water in your hands. Can you hold it in your arms. It will continously make its way around to a opening and leak out. Can you hurt flowing water. If you strike it will it not dissolve your attack while still moving. Stand in a river. Can you stop its flow with your strength? Flow is unbroken and smooth and fluid. It is soft but devasting. In movement flow like a thunderous waving river. In stillness be like a mountain. Be like water. In stillness it can be heavy as a mountain but soft as cotton. When you hit it you can not break it or cut it. It returns back to its normal posistion. But when Water hits you it is strong like an avalance knocking you off your feet and sending you hurling feet away...But if you are double weighted you can not flow. You will be sluggish and slow. Your weight must be empty at one place and full in another. Just as water is both full and empty.

The Music of Flow is Like this:

"When the flow is swift it is difficult to resist. Coming to a high place, it swells and fills the place up;meeting a hollow it dives downward. The waves rise and fall, finding a hole they will surely surge in."

Without "sung" and activation of one's CTS. One is just wasting time intellectually discussing these things. It's impossible to understand the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve without first achieving the state of "sung"

In order to understand sung or activate anything you must first know yourself and know others. You learn your self by practicing the form slowly you know others by doing chi sau.

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,

were you able to use dissolving flexflow no structure when Andreas Hoffman applied his body structure method against you? if not how is this skill useful in self defense?

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,

were you able to use dissolving flexflow no structure when Andreas Hoffman applied his body structure method against you? if not how is this skill useful in self defense?

I hear crickets