There is no such thing as structure

[HumbleWCGuy]

Sure, in the advance level we can talk about no self. however have is no self no mind in daily layman term?

No self is not a common term. It probably only exists in martial arts in the U.S.A., but I am not sure how common it is among martial artists. I assume, that it is something that many longtime sifus would understand (irrespective of art). It was taught to me; I use it; and teach it to my students, but beyond that I cannot say for certain. However, I am not sure that the term fully clarifies your point as I understand it.

No self is something that is commonly understood in athletics as an experience. Athletes recall being "hot," people moving in slow motion, the basketball rim looking big to them. I have heard NFL quarterback, Peyton Manning, say that, "everyone looked open."

[Hendrik]

No self is not a common term. It probably only exists in martial arts in the U.S.A., but I am not sure how common it is among martial artists. I assume, that it is something that many longtime sifus would understand (irrespective of art). It was taught to me; I use it; and teach it to my students, but beyond that I cannot say for certain. However, I am not sure that the term fully clarifies your point as I understand it.

No self is something that is commonly understood in athletics as an experience. Athletes recall being "hot," people moving in slow motion, the basketball rim looking big to them. I have heard NFL quarterback, Peyton Manning, say that, "everyone looked open."

For me, No self is a Zen term. and I present it as it is how I learn from Zen.

[anerlich]

All directions are within the mind.

I guess you don't have satellite navigation in the car then, Robert?

[Wayfaring]

There's some good ideas in the discussion regarding structure vs. no structure. To put it in a way that doesn't sound like someone's been spending too much time on the hookah, another word you could exchange with "structure" is "base".

When wrestlers, grapplers, MMA types talk about "base", it is not a static thing. There is flow going on, and there is a need to adapt to incoming forces trying to unbalance, flank, get position on. Someone with good "base" is hard to unbalance, sweep, or flank.

So all the hookah talk about structure ending up in no structure is simply that good "base" is the proper application of fundamentals in how your body is aligned with itself and in relation to your fighting opponent. When you spend enough time training fundamentals, you develop good "base" which shows up without needing to think about it. So I would agree with the "you either have it or don't" statements. But I would say you develop it in degrees, and the greater the skill level the more someone is able to make someone look like they have no "base" even if they do in general.

I don't like the word "structure" in general w/r to fighting skills / arts. A building has "structure" as it is constructed in one place and immoveable. I don't like the word "root" either for similar reasons. Humans need to move to display those characteristics. If you stay rooted in one place w/r to any kind of skilled opponent you will quickly be out of position. Fighting like a building or a tree is pretty stupid.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


What can be achieved from Hendrik's clip???

***

Stand, Relax & Breath is a very useful tool for many aspects of development!


1) If you cannot just stand still, completely relax and breath effortlessly then how do you expect to do it while moving or stepping or even in combat? The quality of Sung must be achieved.

2) The 1st 3 layers of ones training can be tuned thru the simple concept of Stand, Relax and Breath. Physical conditioning, Mind conditioning and Breath conditioning. So, it is a Lab for your development.

3) The so-called "soft boxing arts" are supposed to be rooted in (yang sheng) or life nourishing exercise. This means, when you practice you should not deplete but re-vitalize. So, in stillness you activate every cell in the body, evenly and smoothly nourish all the organs and other great benefits.


The end results are wholesome soft force and segmented power. Not a structure that can be attached to, and controlled, but a constantly alive and adjusting type of state of attainment. Someone once asked??? How can you condition without doing anything? Similar to untangle a telephone cord! Hang it upside down and let it (body/spine) untangle gradually and smooth. Unlike some forms of Yoga and other Hard types of conditioning. What would happen to the tele cord if you just grabbed both ends and pulled? Would it untangle? Maybe a little but a totally different approach. This is the difference between natural and un-natural process.

So, when you think about just standing still and what kind of results are going to happen from this??? Well, there are many! It is an important and useful tool on many levels but it brings awareness to the three main keys! Posture, relaxation and breathing.


Back to lurk mode!!!


Peace,

[kung fu fighter]

Yup. 4 structure tests became 8, then 16, then 64, then the entire system...finally, there was no need for structure tests. If you have it, you have it. If you don't you don't. Even if you have it and don't do it at the right time, you don't have it.

All of this is Maya.

Maybe too much Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj lately...

So there is still structure in your movements, just not fixed structure for each arm position, for example fook has to be done a certain way, or tan has be that way etc. Everything is part of the flow without any sharp rigid edges in one continous movement. structure is always present even when in transition from one technique to another. One naturally have structure no matter where his arm is positioned.

[m1k3]

There's some good ideas in the discussion regarding structure vs. no structure. To put it in a way that doesn't sound like someone's been spending too much time on the hookah, another word you could exchange with "structure" is "base".

When wrestlers, grapplers, MMA types talk about "base", it is not a static thing. There is flow going on, and there is a need to adapt to incoming forces trying to unbalance, flank, get position on. Someone with good "base" is hard to unbalance, sweep, or flank.

So all the hookah talk about structure ending up in no structure is simply that good "base" is the proper application of fundamentals in how your body is aligned with itself and in relation to your fighting opponent. When you spend enough time training fundamentals, you develop good "base" which shows up without needing to think about it. So I would agree with the "you either have it or don't" statements. But I would say you develop it in degrees, and the greater the skill level the more someone is able to make someone look like they have no "base" even if they do in general.

I don't like the word "structure" in general w/r to fighting skills / arts. A building has "structure" as it is constructed in one place and immoveable. I don't like the word "root" either for similar reasons. Humans need to move to display those characteristics. If you stay rooted in one place w/r to any kind of skilled opponent you will quickly be out of position. Fighting like a building or a tree is pretty stupid.

Good post. This is what I was trying to say, but better and clearer.

[chusauli]

I guess you don't have satellite navigation in the car then, Robert?

If you think about it, all directions are in the mind. If I drive home, I don't have to think this is North, this is West, then turn South, etc., if I know the route.

But if all else fails, there's GPS...

[chusauli]

So there is still structure in your movements, just not fixed structure for each arm position, for example fook has to be done a certain way, or tan has be that way etc. Everything is part of the flow without any sharp rigid edges in one continous movement. structure is always present even when in transition from one technique to another. One naturally have structure no matter where his arm is positioned.

Yup. And even after a while, I can have Fuk energy in Biu Sao, or Tan Sao. And I put all energies in my Jik Chung Chuie. Then I have no "one set structure".

But if no one has this cultivation/work, they don't have the necessary skill.

[chusauli]

There's some good ideas in the discussion regarding structure vs. no structure. To put it in a way that doesn't sound like someone's been spending too much time on the hookah, another word you could exchange with "structure" is "base".

When wrestlers, grapplers, MMA types talk about "base", it is not a static thing. There is flow going on, and there is a need to adapt to incoming forces trying to unbalance, flank, get position on. Someone with good "base" is hard to unbalance, sweep, or flank.

So all the hookah talk about structure ending up in no structure is simply that good "base" is the proper application of fundamentals in how your body is aligned with itself and in relation to your fighting opponent. When you spend enough time training fundamentals, you develop good "base" which shows up without needing to think about it. So I would agree with the "you either have it or don't" statements. But I would say you develop it in degrees, and the greater the skill level the more someone is able to make someone look like they have no "base" even if they do in general.

I don't like the word "structure" in general w/r to fighting skills / arts. A building has "structure" as it is constructed in one place and immoveable. I don't like the word "root" either for similar reasons. Humans need to move to display those characteristics. If you stay rooted in one place w/r to any kind of skilled opponent you will quickly be out of position. Fighting like a building or a tree is pretty stupid.

Good post, but the term "base" can be confusing, too.

Would "Frame" be better? Or perhaps "Body alignment", "vector force alignment"?

It all becomes semantics and preference.

Sometimes we do a drill of standing in one place - a la Mui Fa Jong or Baat Sien Toi, or on top of 5 bricks and play - it is just a drill for base.

[Hendrik]

speaking about structure or dynamic structure .. how then is dissolving in coming force be done? what type of structure and or what type of dynamic structure?

and why is dissolving is not withdraw and not resisting.


Some says one root and the force comes going down to the ground. it that dissolving or is it withdrawing or it is resisting?

[duende]

Guys...

Ying (structure/shape) is Energy. One of the Five energies to be exact.

For one to think that structure is simply a static, fixed position physical expression is truly a beginning level understanding of the nature of Ying. On the contrary Ying is a dynamically changing expression... what we refer to in HFY as "Structural Energy" and represents the core foundation within which Tin Yan Dei body mechanics are developed.

Muscle, Bone, Tendon, power generation (ging) although related is a separate topic.

LAU energy or FLOW does not replace YING but instead adds to it and COMPLIMENTS IT.

Lau (Flow) without Ying (structure) is like driving a car with out breaks. As soon as you try to take a turn without someway of controlling and reducing your speed... your car will inevitably spins out of control, and off the road.

This translates into WCK as the practitioner losing their awareness of themselves and falling into distortion body mechanics such as being stretched out, over-extending, or collapsing and compromising one's spacial integrity.

This is specifically why in HFY we have defined system structural reference points and their energy expressions/ussages.

This allow's the HFY practitioner the ability to easily distinguish when they are using distortion/san sau body mechanics, and when they are using system body mechanics... and flow in between.



On a side note...

In regards to Hendrik's demonstration of Jaam Jong (standing post). Where he is at right now is very beginning, and holds little martial art value. Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with "off energy" as well.


Anyways, I'm glad for him that he finally understands the importance of Jaam Jong and how it can benefit one's WCK. As not too long ago, he was vehemently opposed to it, and made many insulting posts here on KFO as to why it had no place in WCK.

I'm glad to see by his actions, that he takes all that back now.


Good training to all.

[Hendrik]

Guys...


In regards to Hendrik's demonstration of Jaam Jong (standing post). Where he is at right now is very beginning, and holds little martial art value.

Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with "off energy" as well.

Could you please enlightent me what is

[B]
Once he progresses, he will need to learn the importance of the expressing the limbs with "off energy" as well.[/B


mean?


Thanks in advance.

[Vajramusti]

There is no such thing as structure
Yup, there is no such thing as structure in WCK.(Hendrik)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes and no. Depends on meaning and context. "No" sounds dogmatic and absolutist.

joy chaudhuri

[kung fu fighter]

Here is a gentle man demoing no structure water flexflow, comes accept goes return it using silence to lead action, and three states, the resistance, the withdraw, and the dissolve? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA