Shaolin Xin Yi related sets

[GeneChing]

I appreciate your situation, Shifu Xing Wu, and we've discussed it some privately. An online forum is an organic creature. Everyone and anyone with web access can contribute. We don't ask for ID, credentials or anything. This is not only because that is the general nature of a web forum, but also because we hope to cater to beginners too. Unfortunately, given that this is a martial forum, much of the daily banter has descended to locker room talk. Personally, I'm a little disappointed in that, but when something grows, there's always a pubescent stage. Also, despite our international access, our primary readership is American, and being from Oz I'm sure you'll agree that America is a country stuck in pubescence.

That being said, a forum is a bit like a masquerade. Some of us, like Sal and me, go nekkid into it. We use the same names that are on our birth certificates. Some use their martial titles like you are, and others use whatever made up name they like. That's part of the sport of it, frankly, and should be taken with a huge grain of salt and a large dollop of humor. People besmirch my name here all the time, just like my teammates used to talk smack in the locker room.

Maybe LFJ is a senior Shaolin disciple. Maybe he's a Shaolin wuseng. Maybe he's a punk 11-year-old kid. The only legal identification I am obligated and able to divulge (and this would be in response to legal action) is his IP. Then it would be up to legal to chase down that IP. So it's totally up to LFJ if he wants to 'fess up to his true identity to you.

I'm sorry that your introduction to our forum here has been so volatile. We do have some very good Shaolin discussions here and given your involvement with Shaolin, would enjoy your participation. In movies, the Manchus need to kill your whole family before you take refuge at Shaolin. Here in the 21st century, it just takes someone talking smack to lure you into the first chamber of our forums. I hope we get over this dispute and continue this discussion of Xin Yi.

Sal has extended an olive branch, which is an honorable gesture at this point. As for LFJ, that's between you two gentlemen now.

[Sal Canzonieri]

good point.
r.

Very true, my Shaolin comes from lines outside of Shaolin temple, and many many people have looked to their guidance, including Shaolin Temple itself.

The new series that Abott Shi Yongxin is doing is from the folk masters, they are taking a serious look at the routines Shaolin has been doing and researching amongst the folk masters the most correct way to do the routines.

So, even Shaolin itself is now warmly recognizing the folk Shaolin masters, and are very interested in looking at any routines that have been either lost over time at the temple or were only practiced amongst the folk Shaolin Quan masters.

[GeneChing]

It's more that the general public just wanted to see monks. But if you actually go to Shaolin, it's clear that the folk masters have substantial power and say about the direction of Songshan Shaolin nowaday. It's nice to see this official nod from the Abbot in terms of a publication. However, the Abbot has given many official nods in other media. Taguo, which is as folk master as you can get given that Liu Baoshan is a card-holding communist (so not Buddhist by any measure), set a grand stele within the innermost courtyard of the temple. That's a major nod.

My Nov Dec 2008 cover story was on a folk master - see Shaolin Masters Keeping the Faith by Gigi Oh and me. This is a prime example of why the monks take precedence. With Shaolin, we do our annual Shaolin specials, and it's a major sell point for a robed monk to be on our cover on the newsstands. So Chen Tongshan couldn't be on the cover of our Shaolin special. He wouldn't shave and robe up which is understandable; it would have been totally inappropriate if he did. So to put him on our Shaolin special cover would have been like stabbing ourselves in the foot.

But more to the point, in our 2003 Shaolin special, I penned (or rather keyboarded) an article titled So You Want to Train at Shaolin? Your Guide to Dengfeng and New Shaolin Village. In it, I listed the Tep ten Masters of Shaolin (only one had a monk title - Shi Deqian), as well as the 18 Diamonds of Shaolin and the 18 Lohan of Shaolin, both of which were mostly folk masters. These 3 lists were from official Dengfeng standings.

The folk masters of Shaolin are the hidden treasures of Dengfeng....hidden right out in the open if you're not blinded by bald heads and orange robes.

[r.(shaolin)]

Understood.
There are various sets in Songshan Shaolin that start and end with that salute.

I know that the Xiao Luohan Quan set does that for sure, as well as some other Luohan sets.

I think it is is Luohan thing, that would make sense because they would come from the same root as your lineage of Shaolin Quan: Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng.

In imperial times it was by the opening (and closings) of the sets and the basics/fundamentals that exponents of a lineage recognized each other. The actual sets often varied between generations even from the same lineages and were not a good indication of relationship.

That cross hand '印' used by Shi Su Yun indicates that one time we had a common ancestor.

According to our older generations when the Shaolin school adopted sets from the outside they did two things: made changes to the form so that it did not contradict the basics of the school and secondly they added Shaolin yin 印 to the the beginning and end. Generally the original style salutation would also be left in. This created longer openings for some sets. During the modern period I believe many of these openings have been dropped. This why most of the Shaolin set today just begin after just a generic Buddhist 合十 合爪/合掌 gesture. As well what was passed on to us was that the 合掌 gesture was used only by ordained monks before the yinxiang 印相 of the lineage and laity and lay brothers 優婆塞 and sisters 優婆夷 did not use it.

r.

[GeneChing]

I've seen a folk master do a similar crossed forearm salute in a demo in Dengfeng. Unfortunately, I didn't get that masters name. I'm not even sure he was from Dengfeng. He may have just been visiting. I've seen a lot of Dengfeng demos and they all get blurred together.

I've been having a personal issue with the salute lately. My current master, Yan Fei, does a salute akin to the qigong in 8-section brocade. I've always done my Songshan Shaolin salutes like a namaste bow, which is how Shi Decheng first taught me. Yan Fei has been trying to transmit proper breathing at the beginning and ending of forms, so he shows the other students this way. He never comments on my namaste style (he has plenty of other stuff to comment on with me) but I'm rather attached to it. For me, the forms are very much a part of my Buddhist meditation, so I feel more connected doing it that way. Decheng was under Suyun too, but he never showed me that way of saluting.

[r.(shaolin)]

I've been having a personal issue with the salute lately. My current master, Yan Fei, does a salute akin to the qigong in 8-section brocade

Is there a pic of this?
r.

[GeneChing]

It's basically the old 'raise your hands, palm up and inhale; lower your hands, palm down, exhale'. But it's not a formal salute. He's really just using it as an exercise. A lot of my younger shidi don't really get the breath coordination thing at all yet. They're young. They can do it all in one breath, totally unlike me now. I'll pant like a overheated dog if I don't reset my qi with that movement. But I still use the namaste bow because that's just my style.

That's my implied point in all this. We can study the minutiae of the forms, but ultimately, there's variation within each lineage, so it's really muddled research. Of course, now we have youtube and can make some comparisons. But those youtube vids are just snapshots. I've someone was to take a snapshot of Yan Fei's class, they might get the wrong impression. He might be doing something different than his master taught him in an effort to transmit a lesson. I do something different than what Yan Fei teaches me because I've had different input. Decheng does something different than this Suyun bow, possibly because he was connected to the Wushuguan for so many years and they probably standardized all of that for unity of their performances. It's tricky research, and in the end, might have no real meaning whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong. I don't say that to discourage you in this research. In fact, I really enjoy reading it here. But in a typical Buddhist fashion, I wouldn't get to attached to it.

[r.(shaolin)]

It's basically the old 'raise your hands, palm up and inhale; lower your hands, palm down, exhale'. But it's not a formal salute. He's really just using it as an exercise. A lot of my younger shidi don't really get the breath coordination thing at all yet. They're young. They can do it all in one breath, totally unlike me now. I'll pant like a overheated dog if I don't reset my qi with that movement. But I still use the namaste bow because that's just my style.

Hi Gene,
These breath sequences appears in the beginning or end of a number of our sets as well.
As you say "'raise your hands, palms up and inhale lower your hands, palms down, exhale'" or as some other similar movement and inhale followed by palms down, exhale'"
But these are not salutes.
r.

[GeneChing]

However, some of my classmates might think it is. And when they do it, just as a qi gathering exercise, I'm doing my gassho salute. I use that salute as a qi gathering movement to frame my form. So for me, it's a floor wax and a dessert topping.

[LFJ]

to brett,

the point was never to defame anyone. you have taken offense too early. we were talking about shaolin rouquan, and one of my comments and observations about your claims and practices based on my experience and research stirred you up.

the only interest here has been to continue discussing our research of what we all practice. if we are truly interested in spreading the art, then it is worth the extra effort to understand and gain as much knowledge about its history and theory as possible. which doesnt come through practice alone.

rather than defend your person, defend your stances. please contribute to the research as you apparently know something we dont...

regarding your rouquan, do you think you could offer any sort of hard evidence that it is in ven. suxi's lineage? perhaps even your master doing it, or in some way having him personally confirm its origin as it came to him? or other people in ven. suxi's lineage practicing this set? that would really help the search.

i'm not interested in your flexibility or articles. thats all great though, but not what i'm looking for from you. there is no personal attack on you, but merely a disagreement about your material, large though it may be.

regarding your questions of me and my experience, i have already answered what is relevant to the discussion, but you read over it apparently. also i have seen you copy straight from me, so i'd rather not embarrass you here with the full story. since personal situations are not the focus here, but uncovering the origin and history of shaolin material.

as i said, if you are willing to contribute to that cause, i'm interested in speaking with you more. if you just want a personal fight, join a drama club.

peace.

[LFJ]

I've seen a folk master do a similar crossed forearm salute in a demo in Dengfeng. Unfortunately, I didn't get that masters name. I'm not even sure he was from Dengfeng. He may have just been visiting. I've seen a lot of Dengfeng demos and they all get blurred together.

that would also be master yang guiwu, as he performed shaolin hububa (tiger catching), stamping on the dents in the floor in the old shaolin documentary. after his performance he turns toward his group of students and they all salute each other like this.

[r.(shaolin)]

However, some of my classmates might think it is. And when they do it, just as a qi gathering exercise, I'm doing my gassho salute. I use that salute as a qi gathering movement to frame my form. So for me, it's a floor wax and a dessert topping.

I'm off to supper :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zum1-...eature=related

[LFJ]

Or what about Kan Jia Fist.......I love this form...awesome real life defence apps..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBagR6tKQ5k

A 10,000 word theises on this perhaps??? Sal , LFJ......

Amitofo
Master Shifu Brett Russell

kanjiaquan? how about a 1 word thesis?

"liuhequan"

compare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQEP54fBMuU

[Sal Canzonieri]

It's basically the old 'raise your hands, palm up and inhale; lower your hands, palm down, exhale'. But it's not a formal salute. He's really just using it as an exercise. A lot of my younger shidi don't really get the breath coordination thing at all yet. They're young. They can do it all in one breath, totally unlike me now. I'll pant like a overheated dog if I don't reset my qi with that movement. But I still use the namaste bow because that's just my style.

That's my implied point in all this. We can study the minutiae of the forms, but ultimately, there's variation within each lineage, so it's really muddled research. Of course, now we have youtube and can make some comparisons. But those youtube vids are just snapshots. I've someone was to take a snapshot of Yan Fei's class, they might get the wrong impression. He might be doing something different than his master taught him in an effort to transmit a lesson. I do something different than what Yan Fei teaches me because I've had different input. Decheng does something different than this Suyun bow, possibly because he was connected to the Wushuguan for so many years and they probably standardized all of that for unity of their performances. It's tricky research, and in the end, might have no real meaning whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong. I don't say that to discourage you in this research. In fact, I really enjoy reading it here. But in a typical Buddhist fashion, I wouldn't get to attached to it.

I was taught to do my Rou Quan sets and my Taizu Chang quan set with similar rising of the arms palms up and circle them back down with palms down, coordinated with breathing deep and rising and lowering of heels. First up and then down, then out like hugging a huge soft ball and then squeezing it into yourself.
I was told this was the very old way of doing the Shaolin salute. I see that many of Shi Degen's students do this as well as some Taizu Quan people.

Both Shi Degen's students Shi Dejian and Zhu Tianxi all first learned Taizu Chang Quan before they learned Shaolin Quan.
I think that Shi Degen maybe also learned Taizu Chang Quan first? Dimly remember reading that.

I noticed that some of Liu Zhenhai's sets (being both from Shi Degen and also from folk traditions) have three or more layers of salutes before they get going, each other is a tag line from some ancient master or lineage.

[LFJ]

It's basically the old 'raise your hands, palm up and inhale; lower your hands, palm down, exhale'. But it's not a formal salute. He's really just using it as an exercise. A lot of my younger shidi don't really get the breath coordination thing at all yet. They're young. They can do it all in one breath, totally unlike me now. I'll pant like a overheated dog if I don't reset my qi with that movement. But I still use the namaste bow because that's just my style.

actually the namaste bow is also an important opening and closing qigong movement. usually it is done by circling the arms from out wide up over your head, coordinated with the breath, and at the very top you are bringing a "qi ball" into the laogong points on your palms. then bringing it in front of your chest.

this is what really resets your qi at the end or gets it circulating at the start. so whether buddhist or not, it is really important to do this movement, not just the raising and lower of the palms.

also when starting the routines, people hold their fists too wide apart at the waist. they should be held closer to the front of the dantian so as to not "leak" qi. if you open your fists, your fingertips should be able to touch those on the opposite hand.

overlooking this minor detail also results in less energy when running your form.