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Thread: resistance, withdraw, dissolve

  1. #1

    resistance, withdraw, dissolve

    Taiji classic said, " not withdraw, not resist" and that is dissolve.


    Dissolve is not resist.

    Dissolve is not using root or structure to counter the in coming force.

    Dissolve is not withdraw.


    The sam bai fut section of WCK with the Fook sau push outward cant be dissolve but a totally resistance disregard of it is back by shoulder or muscle or structure or root.....etc.

    So what is dissolve?

    Who knows this third state beside the general practice of resistance and withdraw?

  2. #2
    dissolving is clear enough for me

    I'm not sure if the conventional shape of the fook sau can actually dissolve at all

  3. #3
    IMHO,

    almost 90% of SLT is incapable of dissolving incoming force today.

    in 1850's perhaps 50% is capable of dissolving incoming force.


    So, the art has evolved.


    As for today,
    The fook sau section of SLT /SNT is perfectly train for resistance and withdrawing but not dissolving.

  4. #4

    ????Puzzling!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    IMHO,



    As for today,
    The fook sau section of SLT /SNT is perfectly train for resistance and withdrawing but not dissolving.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hendrik- are you making your pronouncement for all of wing chun?

    joy chaudhuri

  5. #5
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    almost 90% of SLT is incapable of dissolving incoming force today.

    in 1850's perhaps 50% is capable of dissolving incoming force.


    So, the art has evolved.
    Well, there's one theory of evolution NOT based on empirical evidence.
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  6. #6
    I am certainly not making pronouncement, that I am not interested at all.

    There are key mechanics needed to be able to dissolve incoming force.
    I am describing the general System dynamic of today's SLT which lack of this time of mechanics.


    If you disagree with me, please
    convince me it is different by share with me what is the system dynamics needed and inplace in what you practice. I am certainly open to learn.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 10-25-2009 at 06:51 PM.

  7. #7

    Comments in brackets

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    I am certainly not making pronouncement, that I am not interested at all.
    ((Ok))

    There are key mechanics needed to be able to dissolve incoming force.
    I am describing the general System dynamic of today's SLT which lack of this time of mechanics.

    ((Mechanics? I thought you said there is no such thing as structure? Apparently we use words differently))


    If you disagree with me, please
    convince me it is different by share with me what is the system dynamics needed and inplace in what you practice. I am certainly open to learn.
    (( Iam unclear as to what your position is at times. A proposition has to be clear enough for agreement or disagreement.
    If you are maintaining that dissolving a force is the only alternative- then I do disagree. One can also control, make a pre emptive attack, explode-the choices are many using different timings.))

    joy chaudhuri

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    (( Iam unclear as to what your position is at times. A proposition has to be clear enough for agreement or disagreement.

    If you are maintaining that dissolving a force is the only alternative- then I do disagree. One can also control, make a pre emptive attack, explode-the choices are many using different timings.))

    joy chaudhuri


    Joy,

    Understood.

    For you,
    What is dissolving force means?

  9. #9
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    Hendrick, I often have a hard time understanding you.

    Dissolve is not resist.

    Dissolve is not using root or structure to counter the in coming force.

    Dissolve is not withdraw.
    Its like saying to someone who has heard the word "water" .

    Water is not tree.

    Water is not fire.

    Water is not air

    What do you think water is?

    I have no idea what action or state of being you are attempting to describe with dissolve. I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with immersing your opponent in a liquid until he loses structural integrity.

    Please explain a little better so that we all can take part in the discussion.

    Thanks,

    Mike

  10. #10

    To Hendrik-

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Joy,

    Understood.

    For you,
    What is dissolving force means?
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Verbally? To change the state, to disperse, to disintegrate. find a different usage etc etc.
    Beyond that- has to be shown empirically.
    What does it mean to you?

    joy chaudhuri

  11. #11
    Ok,


    Resistance feel like when one push into a woodern dummy, a rebounce-able rubber strips, the string of a bow. there is pressure react back disregard if it is a solid banging impact or a elastic rebounce or potential building up counter the force applied.

    Withdraw feel like when one syncronized with the movement of the incoming object, t move with it without having any impact.


    Dissolve feel like when one is pushing a loose beans bag or a pile of beans one's force got diffuse without building up counter force or rebounce or bang back as the resistance or reaction force.

    In this case the incoming force is just diffuse and defocus. Think about hugging and carrying a solid piece of wood compare with hugging and carrying a loose bean bag where is is minimum reaction at all for the applied force.



    Saying these above. does anyone's SLT/SNT train one to have something close to dissolve? if your's does, please shared how do you do it?
    Last edited by Hendrik; 10-26-2009 at 10:55 AM.

  12. #12
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    You have to understand accept before you can dissolve. The 12 energies section of SNT shows you methods of dissolve among other things. The fook of SNT you speak of is not dissolve but you can certainly dissolve with fook. The Wu of the first section can be dissolve if used after accept.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by hunt1 View Post
    You have to understand accept before you can dissolve. The 12 energies section of SNT shows you methods of dissolve among other things. The fook of SNT you speak of is not dissolve but you can certainly dissolve with fook. The Wu of the first section can be dissolve if used after accept.
    hunt1,



    Could you please share more about accept and 12 energies section?
    Could you please also share which lineage of WCK are you learn these from?


    What is the process to cultivate this 12 energies and what is one doing to accept? basically, what will the JYKYM needs to do?

    IE is your use Wu to dissolve what do you need to do? and what is the result of your Wu when other force contacted your wu hand?




    Best Regards
    Last edited by Hendrik; 10-26-2009 at 01:46 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    IMHO,

    almost 90% of SLT is incapable of dissolving incoming force today.

    in 1850's perhaps 50% is capable of dissolving incoming force.

    So, the art has evolved.
    followed later by

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    does anyone's SLT/SNT train one to have something close to dissolve? if your's does, please shared how do you do it?
    Hendrik,

    It sounds like from the first post, you already know the answer to your second question. So, can you please share your evidence of what 10% of WCK of today can actually disolve incoming force? Which half from 1850's could? Please enligten us, we shouldn't have to explain it too you if you already know the answer..

  15. #15
    Yea, 80% of statistics are made up on the fly too.

    IMO, there is not ONE action that can universally be applied to incoming force. Not dissolve, not redirect, not meet head on and overpower, not retreat from or any other action verb.

    It all depends on where it is coming from and your relationship to it as to the options that are available.

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