resistance, withdraw, dissolve

[Xiao3 Meng4]

wow thats morbid buddy...ha ha...but so true...


So whats something from your view point that can excels ones WC????


What are some elements people should study,practice and meditate on...

I don't find it morbid at all.

From my point of view, excellence in any endeavour must start with diligent practice and mastery of the basics. I find most people move on to advanced theory and training too quickly. A strong foundation will allow for effective advanced Wing Chun; if someone does not adequately master the basics, then even if they know the advanced stuff, they can and most likely will be defeated by someone who just knows the basics but knows them really well.

"The Basics" are stuff like your basic targets and strikes, basic parries/deflections/blocks, basic clinching/unclinching, basic stances and footwork, basic fitness, basic focus/coordination/balance/sensitivity/timing... Basically what you'd learn in your first year.

Of course, sparring is necessary, and if you're into the spiritual/health aspects, so is meditation and qigong.

[Yoshiyahu]

i agree the basics are the key...


in your opinion once you have mastered the basics. Should you revisit them from time to time? If so what is your take on the time period of training basics...Also do you believe there is a time when basics should be studied no more?

I don't find it morbid at all.

From my point of view, excellence in any endeavour must start with diligent practice and mastery of the basics. I find most people move on to advanced theory and training too quickly. A strong foundation will allow for effective advanced Wing Chun; if someone does not adequately master the basics, then even if they know the advanced stuff, they can and most likely will be defeated by someone who just knows the basics but knows them really well.

"The Basics" are stuff like your basic targets and strikes, basic parries/deflections/blocks, basic clinching/unclinching, basic stances and footwork, basic fitness, basic focus/coordination/balance/sensitivity/timing... Basically what you'd learn in your first year.

Of course, sparring is necessary, and if you're into the spiritual/health aspects, so is meditation and qigong.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

i agree the basics are the key...


in your opinion once you have mastered the basics. Should you revisit them from time to time?

Yes. Often.

Also do you believe there is a time when basics should be studied no more?

No. Revisiting the basics will allow you to view them in a more experienced light.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes. Often.



No. Revisiting the basics will allow you to view them in a more experienced light.

Thank you very much...I to agree here with what you saying...

but some like Terrence Niehoff believe the basics are like training wheels. That you need not to wear again once you learn how to ride a bike!

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Thank you very much...I to agree here with what you saying...

but some like Terrence Niehoff believe the basics are like training wheels. That you need not to wear again once you learn how to ride a bike!

First, it depends what "basics" Terrence was talking about. Should you do single actions for the rest of your training career? Should you always look to unclinch? I don't think so.

The "basics" I'm talking about are more like core skills and abilities. Taking the bike riding as an example, I certainly did not stop learning to ride once the training wheels came off. Every time I got on the bike, I learned a little bit more. Eventually, biking became second nature, and I began to attempt jumps, wheelies, and so on.

In Martial Arts, if you want to call drills the "training wheels" and sparring "taking the wheels off," then the same applies. I wouldn't increase the tools in my toolkit until I was sure that I could use the tools I already had as naturally as reaching for a glass of water when thirsty, or riding a bicycle without needing to concentrate on the act of riding. One way to do that is to develop my use of them under pressure, such as in sparring for example.

So, I guess the truth of the issue probably lies somewhere in between our two perspectives: The basics must be attended to beyond the "training wheel" stage, but there comes a point when the basics become natural, effortless, like reaching for that drink. At that point, it might be time to move beyond/outside your comfort level: attempt that jump, hold that wheelie, pull off that new strategy/tactic/technique... and when that becomes second nature, move beyond it again.

Throughout it all, keep working on those core ideas such as health and fitness, too.

[Tao Of The Fist]

Death.

Any other riddles? Here's one:

What's greater than the greatest
Less than the least
The rich need it
The poor have it
And if you eat it you will die?

Nothing. Nothing at all.

[ErnieWong]

I like Xiao3 Meng4 's take on Basics. One of my teachers constantly tells me that all his power comes from training the basics. Without them, he couldn't pull off the more advanced things. He also says that the Core basics are the advanced things.

Back to Dissolve - I am also confused by Hendrik. I am not bashing him and think he knows a lot, but he feels like a stereotypical psychologist or monk in all those movies I watch. They kind of cause frustration and force you to think or let go and after many of your own self trials and time, you finally understand them. The funny thing is that he's not the teacher and then he tells you to find one. If he's not the teacher, I feel he shouldn't pose the question. If he's not willing to guide you, he shouldn't pose the question. Once you've posed the question, you've taken the responsibility for the conclusion. Especially if we have found a teacher and they can't answer either. Some of the people here on the forums are teachers themselves and can't answer the question. I really wonder if Hendrik has the answer either, if he doesn't guide us to the answer. We don't need him to give the answer but some guidance might help.

Anyway here are my 2 cents about Dissolve. What I understand from this term is that if someone has touched you, instead of redirecting the force, we kind of cancel it out. Taking away the form and energy, kind of. I'm not sure if I'm saying it right though.

So imagine some guy puts both of his hands on both of my shoulders and intends to shove me. If I redirect, I will let his energy continue in another direction. I can pivot and guide him to either side with my hands, away from my body.

If I resist, I will just sink down in my horse, root and maybe lean a tiny bit in their direction to move my mass over a new center of gravity between the 2 of us. Not so much that if he lets go, I will fall forward though.

If I withdraw, I will take a step back and he will push nothing.

(Or I can withdraw enough so that he can not affect me and stay in contact with his hands. Then at the furthest extension of his hands where he can no longer exert force, I will bring his hands off the original direction and send his body with them.)

If I dissolve, I need very good sensitivity and timing. When he exerts his force, he will gather energy from the ground and into his hands for the push. His intent is already set at his hands and feels stable with a tiny push forward. Before I take the full brunt of his force, I cut off his power so his technique cannot be fully realized. To do this I can Pak both his hands off of me from the inside, or I can come with both hands from the outside and bring down his elbows which can also bring his body downwards with 2 Chum Saus, downward Fook Saus, Gang Saus, Gwaht Saus, Kau Sau or Huen Saus, Jut Saus, etc. all with the intent of Sinking the Elbows (Chum Jarng). In my opinion, the second part of withdraw could also count as dissolve as long as we don't disengage.

The only other idea I have about dissolve, is if I let someone hit me and I take it with little or no effect on my body. If you believe in Qigong, then this might be the answer. But I believe Siu Nim Tau has impact on this and I don't think so because everyone thinks there is a Qigong set in SNT.

My Sifu always taught me to relax in SNT. The way we move in the first section is extremely slow, especially when we do the Tan, Huen, Wu, Fook area. We should move as slowly as the big hand (Minute hand) on the clock. That one area for us could last at least 10 minutes for both hands. Our bodies are so tired from holding those positions up that we slowly start reducing the use of unnecessary muscles. I guess this is "Fang Song" or relaxing in one respect. We still need to move, but only using the bare minimum needed. Slowly the rest of our body does that.

After I started to realize I was kind of loose but this got taken away in Chi Sau when I got punched in the chest. It hurt! Basically I tensed up and provided a hard surface for someone to hit. This also happens if I hold my breath in. If my body was relaxed, it wouldn't hurt so much. So I tried an experiment to see if I could feel the difference. I let my friend hit me and when I saw it coming, I couldn't help but tense up. It hurt. So then I closed my eyes but I still felt scared and tense. To relieve that tension I started to count with my eyes closed. I concentrated on counting and when the hit came, it hurt but not as much. Actually, my voice got louder on impact and that expulsion of air also helped reduce the pain. After that experience I didn't mind getting hit on the chest and got far less bruises.

What do you guys think. Please don't slam me too hard, I'm a newbie to this board hehehe.

[Hendrik]

Back to Dissolve - I am also confused by Hendrik. I am not bashing him and think he knows a lot, but he feels like a stereotypical psychologist or monk in all those movies I watch. They kind of cause frustration and force you to think or let go and after many of your own self trials and time, you finally understand them. The funny thing is that he's not the teacher and then he tells you to find one. If he's not the teacher, I feel he shouldn't pose the question. If he's not willing to guide you, he shouldn't pose the question. Once you've posed the question, you've taken the responsibility for the conclusion. Especially if we have found a teacher and they can't answer either. Some of the people here on the forums are teachers themselves and can't answer the question. I really wonder if Hendrik has the answer either, if he doesn't guide us to the answer. We don't need him to give the answer but some guidance might help.

.

Why second guessing ?

since you are in Shang Hai,
visit the top notch TaiJi IMA sifu in Shang Hai and tell him what Hendrik said. ask him to let you feel his resistance, withdraw , and dissolve. Then, post.

[ErnieWong]

I'm confused by your response. I thought we were talking about Ving Tsun, not Internal Martial Arts.

I have felt my Taiji teacher's expression of dissolve. He let me hit him and it felt like hitting sand. The harder I hit him, the more I was getting nowhere.

When I pushed him, his body went limp and I couldn't get a grip on him. When I invade his space, he loosens my grip and pushes me away.

[ErnieWong]

Sorry my computer crashed before I finished my post. I said that I felt my teacher's expression. I never said he said it was dissolve. I never thought of asking about dissolve until now, but I will.

But he's a Taiji teacher, I still don't understand how that relates to Ving Tsun. I don't think that using Taiji mechanics to dissect Ving Tsun is a good way to do so. We might find similarities but it's different. If you have to always look outside the system, how well do you know your own.

So Hendrik, I'd like to ask a favor. Please tell me how my answers are wrong. I can only learn from my mistakes. I am open to criticism, but you didn't give any.

This is only what I feel. If you pose a question like you did and you're truly looking for an answer, then you must help in the pursuit of the answer. If you already know the answer, then why pose the question. If you posed the question to help others gain insight, you must guide. It feels like you don't know the answer and you know what the answer isn't, but you'll know it if you see it. If that's the case, then please be honest.

[Yoshiyahu]

Ernie Wong the answer to your Question that Hendrik will provide is here


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/show...3&postcount=37

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/show...4&postcount=40

[Hendrik]

Are you discussing with me or I must subject to your view?

and may be I think laterally instead of your vertical thinking?

Not to mention, in an action, there is no Taiji or Ving Tsun but natural action phenomenon.

Taiji and Wing Chun are just a finger pointing to the moon. If you get trap into the name you stuck.

IMHO.

You are chinese right? you watch those martial art TV drama? ask yourself, when two advance players make contact via their arms, what happen to the side who cant evoke the power the other side can? So, there is no taiji mechanics or BJJ mechanics..... can one sustain and dealing with the incoming force vectors in that contact. that determine kung fu.

also, if others throw a curve ball at you can you catch it? Resistance, Withdraw, and Dissolve are three phenomenons in manipulate force vectors, is your body without using your mind use to them? using your mind is too late.

Sorry my computer crashed before I finished my post. I said that I felt my teacher's expression. I never said he said it was dissolve. I never thought of asking about dissolve until now, but I will.

But he's a Taiji teacher, I still don't understand how that relates to Ving Tsun. I don't think that using Taiji mechanics to dissect Ving Tsun is a good way to do so. We might find similarities but it's different. If you have to always look outside the system, how well do you know your own.

So Hendrik, I'd like to ask a favor. Please tell me how my answers are wrong. I can only learn from my mistakes. I am open to criticism, but you didn't give any.

This is only what I feel. If you pose a question like you did and you're truly looking for an answer, then you must help in the pursuit of the answer. If you already know the answer, then why pose the question. If you posed the question to help others gain insight, you must guide. It feels like you don't know the answer and you know what the answer isn't, but you'll know it if you see it. If that's the case, then please be honest.

[Hendrik]

Ernie Wong the answer to your Question that Hendrik will provide is here


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/show...3&postcount=37

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/show...4&postcount=40

I have a dozen sifus who I baisi with because I am clueless, so what's wrong with telling you my experience?

[Yoshiyahu]

I have a dozen sifus who I baisi with because I am clueless, so what's wrong with telling you my experience?

You have dozens of Sifu's and you are forever learning but never coming into the knowledge of truth huh?

[Hendrik]

You have dozens of Sifu's and you are forever learning but never coming into the knowledge of truth huh?

Truth comes with different levels. The same practice has many depth.

Jim can tell you more.