Question about Chi

[Vajramusti]

These kinds of discussions are not really resolved in short internet forum discussions. Science is at it's best in physics- as science approaches human affairs it can become easily loaded with more cultural and personal assumptions and models... and becomes loaded with epistemological issues not just verbal definitions. And the context for different issues and meaning a become very important.

You don't have to "believe" in "chi" to do wing chun- just do wing chun "correctly" and chi will take care of itself. The problem is in the meaning of "correctly".Not an easy subject IMO.

In any case, without chi, prana or pneuma- I would be dead. But healthy motion, and many good Asian arts-are helped by an understanding of how the chi flows in motion--if you have a successful acupuncture treatment- it's in part due to the practitioners understanding of the chi flow. The practitioner does not have to use the word chi. Because of Marxist materialism under Mao--they
underused the word chi- but honored TCM and acupuncture.One has to drop both materialistic assumptions and non materialistis assumptions to experiment with what is there in human motion and flow.
You can always tell in taiji in using certain motions- who understands chi in fingers and who doesnt.
CXW in correcting Chen postures personally- before his English got better would say "chi here" at the end of the pathway..
First rate yoga teachers- not the fitness center ones also make sure that your prana(chi) is flowing the right way.
In YGKYM when done well the chi will flow up and down and into your hands and fingers.

Burr's (published) work at Yale in the 1930s experimentally showed that electro- magnetic current runs in all living things.
Licensed DOs-specializing in neuro fascial manipulation also have the working assumption of
a life force being involved in detrmining health or disease.
Interesting as it is one doesn't have to look at the references that Jim is mentioning.

There are different ways of mustering force in a punch- one can be knocked out by 1.a hit by a strong man or Hulk Hogan 2. a punch by a Tyson or 3. a punch by CXW or a top flight wc person.
The potential of #3 takes more training but also last longer in one's life. #1 these days often involve steroids. #2 involves rapid decline after peaking-often leaving some bad side effects on body and mind. The long run of #3 can be diluted by smoking and drinking among other excesses.

Not debating- a considered and devloped opinion and a POV.

joy chaudhuri

[HumbleWCGuy]

Mr Humble wrote:


It's funny that you accuse me of the same bias that you share.


The problem with forum discussions is giving a piece of info. but not participating in the entire discussion. You are assuming I use only that 1 test, which would mean I am bias, But, the truth is I only posted that one test since it was recent and related to the topic/thread. Experience is the other big factor and what I would recommend (more than anything) to anyone who is looking into this field before making personal decisions.

So, I do not use One lab test to make any decisions for me, I did say "Some" prefer to see results before blah blah bla......... It was just food for thought.

After you contact Umass Lowel you can contact Harvard's Benson Institute for Mind/Body science..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvplo5_EtV0


Adios!

Sorry, but medium sized Midwestern University says no. One nut job at Harvard who says yes to Chi is trumped by the rest of the more credible experts who disagree. There are reasons why chi is not accepted by science. Navy seals and cold water swimmers are able to do the same things that these chi masters in the video are doing. There is no magic. Just accept it. If Chi so accepted and credible then why can't you generate credible evidence? Answer, there is none outside of pop-sci articles and video.


To Joy's point. You can only accept the cultural excuse so far, as soon as someone says that Chi can affect physical objects, it can be tested. Thus far there has been no credible documentation.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Joy,


Thank you for mentioning Dr. Burr research/work on the Electro Magnetic Field!

Time for me to really go back to lurk mode. I had some free time this sunday to visit good old KFO! It was fun....





***

A New concept appears in physics, the most important invention since Newton's time: The field. It needed great scientific imagination to realize that it is not the charges nor the particles but the field in space between the charges and the particles which is essential for the description of physical phenomena....

In the beginning, the field concept was no more than a means of facilitating the understanding of phenomena from the mechanical point of view.... The recognition of the new concept grew steadily, until substance was overshadowed by the field. It was realized that something of great importance had happened in physics. A new reality was created, a new concept for which there was no place in the mechanical description. Slowly and by a struggle the field concept established for itself a leading place in physics and has remained as one of the basic physical concepts. The electromagnetic field is, for the modern physicist, as real as the chair on which he sits.


--ALBERT EINSTEIN

[Hendrik]

To you all, there might be just something you debate....etc.

To many others, it is how to live and get healthy.


Qi exist ? yes.

Is Qi as what Joy said? that is just partial of it. There are much much more in SLT.

As I mention before, the do called modern scientific model is just an analytical modern where everything is disect until nothing left. The TCM IMA model is a system synthesis model which bring forward the phenomenon of integration or the effect created via interrelationship of the system.


Until one know what it is how can one jump gun for conclusion?


There is no fire in the dry wood, there is no fire in the sun ray, there is no fire in the magnifiying glass.

But, when using the magnifiying glass to focus the sun ray into the dry wood. fire is evoked.

That is what happen, when the fire of heart boiling the water of kidney the Qi surface. and this Qi can be used to heal one's body or do other stuffs.

Unless you know how to make fire with sun ray, unless you know how to evoke Zhen Qi. What to talk?

Also, can one scientifically investigate a dry wood to find fire? a magnifying glass to find fire? if fire is within dry wood why dont it burn itself? ....



EVerything is very clear but a close and fuzzy mind cannot grasp what is going on and turn into making senseless claim.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;968364]

To Joy's point. You can only accept the cultural excuse so far, as soon as someone says that Chi can affect physical objects, it can be tested. Thus far there has been no credible documentation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No excuses involved. No where did I say that chi can affect physical objects. The point was that elctro magnetism exists in living organisms-not just mechanics. Eisnstein accepted the idea of a field but battled unsuccessfully thus far against Bohr, Heisenberg and Schrodinger(sp).

Depends on what you accept- ok with me if you don't.

joy chaudhuri

[HumbleWCGuy]

No excuses involved. No where did I say that chi can affect physical objects.joy chaudhuri

I was just speaking to a broader issue that I though that you touched upon.

The point was that elctro magnetism exists in living organisms-not just mechanics.

I would not dispute that. I think then some general question for science are:

Is Chi electro-magnitism?
If not EM, what is chi so that it can be measured?
Whatever chi is, can a human generate enough to affect themselves an other objects.

Eisnstein accepted the idea of a field but battled unsuccessfully thus far against Bohr, Heisenberg and Schrodinger(sp).
i

I am not sure what you are getting at here, could you clarify?

Depends on what you accept- ok with me if you don't.

joy chaudhuri

As it should be. Ultimately, I accept that some people want to believe one way or another and can't be changed. However, I am concerned for the naive.

[HumbleWCGuy]

As a general note. I would be hesitant to refer to the current in the human body as something that runs in a continuous flow from one point to another. Rather there are a number of discrete currents on the cellular level that do not interact (i.e. sodium potassium pumps).

This is getting to be a bit ridiculous. People cite "evidence" for chi, but it is really just citing chi as a cause or result of something that isn't fully understood. These arguments aren't very strong.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;968386]
This is getting to be a bit ridiculous. People cite "evidence" for chi, but it is really just citing chi as a cause or result of something that isn't fully understood. These arguments aren't very strong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't need to be concerned about chi-which is just fine.

joy chaudhuri

[Edmund]

After you contact Umass Lowel you can contact Harvard's Benson Institute for Mind/Body science..

UMass never published that quote of yours.

Harvard's Benson Institute has done no research into chi. They published real stuff not your whack job qi masters. Take a look at their publications.

You crap on about this every time saying it's research. Basically appears like you made it up when there's no publications to cite.

The experiments you claim were done never have any publications. Screw them. It's BS.

[HumbleWCGuy]

To you all, there might be just something you debate....etc.

To many others, it is how to live and get healthy.

I think that the training is fine. Although I have an alternate belief about why the training is effective.

Qi exist ? yes.

Is Qi as what Joy said? that is just partial of it. There are much much more in SLT.

As I mention before, the do called modern scientific model is just an analytical modern where everything is disect until nothing left. The TCM IMA model is a system synthesis model which bring forward the phenomenon of integration or the effect created via interrelationship of the system.



Until one know what it is how can one jump gun for conclusion?

When I see some legitimate evidence, I will change my mind immediately. Good science does not take such a reductionist approach. In psychology, for example, behavior is evaluated in terms of biological, social, and cognitive (thinking) components to name a few. However, at no time would someone suggest that behavior be evaluated in terms of subatomic particles. Obviously nothing could exist without subatomic particles, but they are essentially irrelevant to human behavior.

There is no fire in the dry wood, there is no fire in the sun ray, there is no fire in the magnifiying glass.

But, when using the magnifiying glass to focus the sun ray into the dry wood. fire is evoked.

True, there is no fire in any of these things but we can investigate all of the components to see why fire occurred.

That is what happen, when the fire of heart boiling the water of kidney the Qi surface. and this Qi can be used to heal one's body or do other stuffs.

Unless you know how to make fire with sun ray, unless you know how to evoke Zhen Qi. What to talk?

What I know how to do is how to make scientific inquiry and evaluate the legitimacy of evidence. In addition, I have a broad enough education to not be sucked in to believing in chi because I saw someone raise the body temperature or preforms some other feat that appears to be remarkable on the surface, but is well understood by scientists as a physical process.

Also, can one scientifically investigate a dry wood to find fire? a magnifying glass to find fire? if fire is within dry wood why dont it burn itself? ....

Of course not. All of these things must be investigated together to find fire. However, most investigators aren't looking to find out how chi is made because it hasn't be shown to be real yet. What investigators would like, is for a chi master to step forward and demonstrate the effects of chi by demonstrating something that could only be explained by chi.

Put simply, before investigators start looking at the wood, the magnifying glass, and solar rays, they want to see the fire. As of yet, the fire (chi) has not been demonstrated in a convincing manner.

EVerything is very clear but a close and fuzzy mind cannot grasp what is going on and turn into making senseless claim.

Well I am sorry that you think so. Although I don't believe in chi, I think that the training can teach the body to do many amazing things.

As I have said several times, I am concerned about people claiming that they have chi and taking advantage of people. It is very difficult for a laymen to argue against the existence of chi. As this thread has shown, believers will parade apparently fantastic physical feats, questionable philosophical arguments, and questionable research articles out to demonstrate the effects of chi.

It is easy to claim chi when something is not understood. It is difficult to understand the science and sometimes fraud behind the feats.

[Vajramusti]

"As I have said several times, I am concerned about people claiming that they have chi and taking advantage of people."
------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------
Answer: i share your concern about frauds-but they are there in practically every field.

Given the anonymity- I don't know who you are and what you have learned . If you prefer exclusively bio mechanical explanations for what skills you have developed-that is not unusual at all
and quite acceptable to me.

FWIW-a non fraudulent but a non western perspective :everyone has chi-if they are living--in varying degrees depending on their health. Too little or too much can have undesirable side effects.

In order not to waste time lots of good teachers don't waste their time arguing about chi.

No real dialogue here- I suggest that we drop the thread. Not a missionary bone in this body. Forum discussions often go round and round in circles and the same topics emerge again and again. This discussion on chi I am sure has occurred in this forum many times.Cheers.

joy chaudhuri

[Jim Roselando]

Edmond wrote:

The experiments you claim were done never have any publications. Screw them. It's BS.

****


ROFLOL hahaha Joy is correct:

No real dialogue here- I suggest that we drop the thread. Not a missionary bone in this body. Forum discussions often go round and round in circles and the same topics emerge again and again. This discussion on chi I am sure has occurred in this forum many times.

Read the full report if you want (or not). My last reply for those who have interest! JR


****


University of Massachusetts - Lowell; Lowell, MA 01850


EFFECTS OF CHI ENERGY EMISSION ON NB2a CELLS

ABSTRACT

The medicinal benefits of chi, or the body's inherent natural healing energy, have been used in Asia for many years. Therapeutic anti-cancer effects remain somewhat unclear due to placebos with humans. Here the placebo effect was negated through use of neuroblastoma cells (NB2a). The purpose of this study was to identify phenotypic effects in vitro on NB2a cells after several minutes of chi emission by a Chi Gung Master. A Chi Gung Master performed energy emission to 9 plates of equal confluency using two methods: Open Palm and Fingertip. Time intervals of 6 and 12 minutes were used to evaluate any deviation among emission time. After all plates were counted via hemacytometer and compared to controls. Results showed time difference (6 vs. 12 minutes) did not have any significant impact. Open Palm-type emission rendered to be non-statistically significant, showing an overall 2.87% decrease from control plates. Fingertip emission, however, showed an overall decrease of 50.23%. The change incancer cell plates receiving Fingertip emission compared to controls suggests there may be direct in vivo anti-cancer benefits from this modality of substanceless medicine.

INTRODUCTION

The medicinal form of treatment researched here originates from ancient Chinese medicine, using the bioelectromagnetic energy of the body to drive out imbalances disrupting homeostasis. This is similar to the theory of meridians used by acupuncturists. Chi Gung, or working with the body's energy, is a fundamental part of Traditional Chinese Medicine often overlooked due to complexities of the placebo effect questioning its true efficacy. Here we eliminated the placebo factor by using NB2a cells. 13 Plates were prepared from the same source and passaged to consistent confluency two days prior to the experiment.

A Chi Gung Master performed the technique Fa Chi, or chi energy emission (CEE). In the practice of working with energy, there is often a connotation of "positive" and "negative" energy manipulated by experienced practitioners. For the entirety of this experiment negative energy was emitted to note destructive phenotypic effects on the cancer cells. CEE was performed at time intervals of 6 minutes and 12 minutes to ascertain any deviation in effect, which there appeared not to be.

Two common methods of emission were used: Open Palm and Fingertip. In Open Palm and Fingertip methods, the Chi Gung Master placed his hand within 3 inches of culture plates. The last plate received Distance Healing, where the Chi Gung Master used intent alone to manipulate negative energy on cancer cells. This action was performed consistently for every plate tested. 4 Plates were used as control, 4 for Open Palm, and 4 for Fingertip. 2 Control plates were left out of the incubator for 6 minutes and 2 for 12 minutes to match the plates receiving some form of CEE. All cells were counted via hemacytometer 2 hours after receiving negative CEE and analyzed for percent change.

MATERIAL AND METHODS

Cells were kindly donated by Ambar Ahmed and reagents by Deepali Gotur of University of Massachusetts Lowell. Two days prior to the experiment NB2a cells (P0) were passaged. Media was removed and cells rinsed in PBS buffer. After, 1 ml of trypsin was added and cells were incubated for 8 min at 37 degrees Celsius. Cells were then pipetted out into a centrifuge tube and serum-containing media was added to reach 3 mls. Cells were spun at 3000 rpm for 5 min and passaged out in a 1:15 dilution into 14 sterile plates with 1.8 ml serum-containing media added. Cells were kept incubated at 37 degrees Celsius. On the third day cells were taken out only for the time period needed for CEE (6 – 12 min) and control plates as well. Each plate was taken out individually for its set time of energy exposure. After CEE was completed for a plate, 2 hrs later hemacytometer cell counts were performed. Serum-media was removed and plates were rinsed in PBS buffer then incubated with 2 mls trypsin at 8-10 min each. Counts were performed using trypan blue in a 1:2 dilution with NB2a cells.

RESULTS
SAMPLE
AVG
W. AVG



Control Plates
52250




Fingertip Emission

26000



6 min exposure

26000
A
34000

B
18000




12 min exposure

26000
C
9000

D
43000




Open Palm Emission

50750



6 min exposure

54000
E
41000

F
67000




12 min exposure

47500
G
44000

H
51000




Distance Healing


I
33000
33000

Figure 2 – Percent Change of Plates Receiving CEE
Plates were analyzed in percent increase or decrease
relative to the control average.


Figure 1 – Averaged Cell Counts
Plates were counted twice via hemacytometer using a 1:2 dilution of trypan blue to help visualize cells. Average cells derived from four control plates came to be 52250. Fingertip-tested plates averaged at 26000 and Open Palm-tested
plates 50750. Plates were also averaged grouped by time exposure to CEE as well as a single sample taken for Distance Healing.
Percent Change to Controls





Fingertip - 6 min
50.23% Decrease
Fingertip - 12 min
50.23% Decrease
Overall Fingertip
50.23% Decrease




Open Palm - 6 min
3.34% Increase
Open Palm – 12 min
9.09% Decrease
Overall Open Palm
2.87% Decrease







Figure 3 – Averaged Cancer Cell Counts After Chi Emission
DISCUSSION

CEE given by Open Palm method proved insubstantial in manipulated the cells phenotype in any way, and no cell death was inferred as the percent change decreased only by 2.87% (Figure 2). While there may still be therapeutic effects in regards to human patients, none was shown through in vitro activity. The Fingertip emission method, however, provides interesting results. NB2a cells decreased by 50.23% and all four plate samples (A-D) resulted in statistically significant lower counts then the cumulative average of the four control plates that remained non-CEE treated. The Distance Healing plate (sample I) cannot be rendered statistically significant as only one plate was tested however it too provides a significant decrease from the control average of non-treated CEE plates (seen in Figure 1).

Duration of chi exposure proved weak in terms of cell death efficacy of CEE as some averages were higher for cells receiving 12 minutes as opposed to 6 minutes. More importantly, it seems the modality of emission plays a larger role in effectively killing cancer cells. On average, twice as many cancer cells were killed using Fingertip Fa Chi emission method than did Open Palm. While not all counts were consistent with level of cell death, certainly more of a trend appeared in cancer cells receiving CEE via Fingertip method. Thus, chi's ability to kill cancercells directly has been shown here to a degree in Figure 3. Being a form of substanceless medicine and lacking any side effects, Chi Gung's importance of manipulating this inherent energy of the body as an anti-cancer practice must be further researched and evaluated.

[HumbleWCGuy]

This experiment could have only been published in a fly-by-night journal if it were published at all. This reads like a high school science experiment or a lab writeup from undergraduate biology that took about 2 hours to complete, both experiment and write up.

Each sample should have acted as its own control. There should be a before and after measure of cells. Also, I would be completely astounded to find that an IRB (Institutional Review Board) let an experiment participant reveal their name. There is too much risk of a person being denied a job because a company does not want to deal with the financial costs associated with hiring a cancer survivor.

There is no discussion of why one type of exposure was better than another. I sent this lab paper to my biologist and physician friends to evaluate as well.

[m1k3]

Did you ever notice how many people are willing to buy into the "alternative medicine" concept?

I wonder how many would be interested in flying in a plane designed and built by alternative engineers?

We don't need no stinking math, we have the secrets of the ancient masters!

I think a lot of you need to have your bullsh1t detectors recalibrated.

[anerlich]

Having read that "study", if I get cancer, I'll ...

ask for an urgent referral to an oncologist

, and I reckon Jim and Hendrik would as well.

What any of that has to do with Wing Chun escapes me in any case.