"Shovel" Concept

[goju]

oh god the mt clinch again lol
look based on the principle of wing chun or even any other bridging hands trapping style isnt that the last thing you should do is leave your hands out there when your trying to grab their neck or body?

im not saying the mt clinch sucks or automatically a chunner or fighter who is good at bridging hands can dismantle a clinch attempt but its not rocket science to get out of it even the mt counters for an mt clinch are the simplest things

[HumbleWCGuy]

oh god the mt clinch again lol
look based on the principle of wing chun or even any other bridging hands trapping style isnt that the last thing you should do is leave your hands out there when your trying to grab their neck or body?

im not saying the mt clinch sucks or automatically a chunner or fighter who is good at bridging hands can dismantle a clinch attempt but its not rocket science to get out of it even the mt counters for an mt clinch are the simplest things

Simple if you know all the clinching position counters, throw counters, entries , and mistakes to avoid. There is more to it than pummeling and grabbing behind the neck. That is just basic. Obviously it depends on the school, but some schools have sophisticated enough clinching to be treated like it a second art. San Shu clinching is probably a notch up still because of the better throwing.

Also, a WCer needs to drill them regularly, and that is the tough part when the focus is in other areas.

[HumbleWCGuy]

When did application get separated from training? Train like you fight... Fight like you train... Right?

[sihing]

When did application get separated from training? Train like you fight... Fight like you train... Right?

Yes and No IMO. If you train like you fight, then the there would be no difference between the two, no distinction. You would just get a fight club going in your town and vola, there is your weekly session. The thing that should be the same in training and fighting (I distingish btwn the two) is the mental focus, intention and always keeping in mind the end goal, you safe and him incapcitated. The differences are wide and varied, but to keep it simple, in training you are isolating things, lessening the intensity so that the process of understanding and absorbtion of what you are training in is possible. There is more of a thought process involved and testing of what works for you and what doesn't when training/learning. Even the top guys in MMA have a coach/trainer by their side to give them some feedback as to what they are doing right and wrong. This process is non existent when you are fighting, as your intent is not to learn or train something, but to apply what you have learned and trained.

So for me there is a difference btwn the two. You can learn from your own experience for sure, but it is faster to learn from someone else's experience than strictly relying on your own, as they can short cut your progress. Eventually you have to experience it for yourself and use your art in your own way, but to gain specific skill sets you need a coach or trainer/Sifu.

James

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yes and No IMO. If you train like you fight, then the there would be no difference between the two, no distinction. You would just get a fight club going in your town and vola, there is your weekly session. The thing that should be the same in training and fighting (I distingish btwn the two) is the mental focus, intention and always keeping in mind the end goal, you safe and him incapcitated. The differences are wide and varied, but to keep it simple, in training you are isolating things, lessening the intensity so that the process of understanding and absorbtion of what you are training in is possible. There is more of a thought process involved and testing of what works for you and what doesn't when training/learning. Even the top guys in MMA have a coach/trainer by their side to give them some feedback as to what they are doing right and wrong. This process is non existent when you are fighting, as your intent is not to learn or train something, but to apply what you have learned and trained.

So for me there is a difference btwn the two. You can learn from your own experience for sure, but it is faster to learn from someone else's experience than strictly relying on your own, as they can short cut your progress. Eventually you have to experience it for yourself and use your art in your own way, but to gain specific skill sets you need a coach or trainer/Sifu.

James

I could be misunderstanding you, but that statement seems to be backing way off of what you have said previously. Have you changed your mind? When I said that Jin's misunderstandings about boxing and kickboxing make his explanation of the classical WC stance dubious (especially concerning its relationship to over-riding fighting strategy), you suggest that it is fine that Jin's video has questionable relationship to a greater context as it is "just training."

I submit that if you don't know what something is for then how can you train it properly? You seemed to have suggested that this is unimportant.

Edit: Without correct context, it is like Daniel waxing on and waxing off, but not understanding that he is doing martial arts. I am not saying that Jin's explanation is as bad as all that, but when he provides context for the techniques, it is not correct.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I was talking to a friend of mine who has also watched many of Chinaboxers's videos. They are best watched without sound. That way, one isn't distracted by how the techniques are put into the questionable to incorrect context, when weightlifting and boxing are referenced.


Without sound, I only see a couple of problems which are 1 or 2 questionable techniques out many. The questionable techniques being his takedown defense and his video on punching where he executes a forward shuffle and pulls himself forward with his font leg rather than push off of his rear leg.

Edit: In general I think that his classical WC is fine when I watch it. It looks good. I just question the the contextual explanations, reasoning, and his representations of other arts.

[Wong Fai]

Hello,

I enjoyed the video/ instruction of WC mechanics and its relation to powerlifting. I also think the powerlifting connection demonstrates that WC initially creates its power from simple body mechanics (yes, structure).
But I would add that you saying the heel is never up in WC or (Chinese Boxing) is not correct. I encourage you to do your straight punches while alternating heel up for each foot, with alternating heel's grounding as each punch is released. Start with the back heel grounding for the rear hand punch and the front heel grounding for the leading hand punch. Then alternate.
After playing around with this you will find your footwork is much more alive and your punches have more potential energy as you are now bouncing your energy off the ground (accelerating it) yet being grounded (for that instant) as each strike is delivered.
Give it a try...the results will surprise you.
Do however, learn and try to master the basic footwork/stance structures of WC before making this jump. If you don't then you will not benefit but simply be dancing around with a heel up.

Have fun,

WF

[Yoshiyahu]

Hello,

I enjoyed the video/ instruction of WC mechanics and its relation to powerlifting. I also think the powerlifting connection demonstrates that WC initially creates its power from simple body mechanics (yes, structure).
But I would add that you saying the heel is never up in WC or (Chinese Boxing) is not correct. I encourage you to do your straight punches while alternating heel up for each foot, with alternating heel's grounding as each punch is released. Start with the back heel grounding for the rear hand punch and the front heel grounding for the leading hand punch. Then alternate.
After playing around with this you will find your footwork is much more alive and your punches have more potential energy as you are now bouncing your energy off the ground (accelerating it) yet being grounded (for that instant) as each strike is delivered.
Give it a try...the results will surprise you.
Do however, learn and try to master the basic footwork/stance structures of WC before making this jump. If you don't then you will not benefit but simply be dancing around with a heel up.

Have fun,

WF

Your Heels are not up. More weight is found on balls. If your heels are up you will lack balance and be vunerable for a pull. If your toes are up you will lack balance and will be able to uprooted easily. The key is having the right substantial and insubstainal. In other words one part of the foot is full and the other is empty. Just like one leg is full and the other empty. Your entire leg is not off the ground just lighter. So it is with your heel. When you shift your heel lightly slides across the floor, ground,mat, carpet, dirt, etc.