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Thread: Exposition of Original Shaolin Staff Fighting

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Song shan actually has quite a lot of different versions of YinShouGun, also there are 6 roads to it in some clans. The version I practice is quite non standard, but I have seen many others. I want to see if I can match it to any.
    Great, I would love to see what you find.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    There are various other books older than this one published in 1600s that shows and writes about many fist practice at Shaolin. That Shaolin Temple history book that came out a few years ago by Professor Maheir writes all about them.
    I have a large collection of books from this era. Could you refresh my memory on which Ming era books talk about Shaolin fist methods?

  3. #48
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    Er Lang Carries the Mountain

    There should be story where Er Lang carried a mountain existing in the Ming.
    There are mentions of Er Lang in books of that time such as Journey to the West, but I have not been able to find mention of Er Lang shouldering or carrying a mountain.

    Any clues?

    This technique, called Er Lang shoulders the mountain is from the Wu Bei Zhi version of Cheng Zengyou's work

  4. #49
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    No, I have often wondered that, I assumed it was a part of old mythology. The technique ErLangDanShan appears in all the weapons and fists and is usually compared to 'Dan Bian' and is almost always a both arms straight out in line posture.

    Interestingly, the modern version of this technique (in SongShan) the staff is almost immediately caught by the free hand and the staff is carried across the shoulders by both hands and performs a rotation before being unleashed. Appears in many forms.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 10-02-2013 at 11:26 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainan Mantis View Post
    There should be story where Er Lang carried a mountain existing in the Ming.
    There are mentions of Er Lang in books of that time such as Journey to the West, but I have not been able to find mention of Er Lang shouldering or carrying a mountain.

    Any clues?

    This technique, called Er Lang shoulders the mountain is from the Wu Bei Zhi version of Cheng Zengyou's work
    there were 10 suns in the sky. three eyed god carries mountains on his back and throws them at nine suns, crushing them under the ground.

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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    there were 10 suns in the sky. three eyed god carries mountains on his back and throws them at nine suns, crushing them under the ground.
    So no arrows in that particular story then. This throwing mountains story seems very interesting. I thought Houyi was responsible. But then, there are numerous creation myths. So many cultures and religions.
    Last edited by Sima Rong; 10-02-2013 at 02:51 PM.

  7. #52
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    Sorry it took me so long to catch up on this one. Been busy.

    Nice thread topic for here, RenDaHai. Good on you!

    Quote Originally Posted by pazman View Post
    I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?
    The forms described in the manual don't really map on to the modern forms very well. I'm speaking mostly about yinshougun, not so much about the others as I haven't really worked on those. Anyway, I have always pondered why this is - not in a direct lineage way as that's a game of Chinese whispers spanning decades - but in a reconstructive way. If Shaolin was all reconstructed, why didn't they reconstruct it in a way that mimicked this manual? I mean honestly, how hard would that be? Why didn't someone just interpret the manual, reconstruct the form from that, and then come out saying that they have the true original form?
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Nice thread topic for here, RenDaHai. Good on you!


    The forms described in the manual don't really map on to the modern forms very well. I'm speaking mostly about yinshougun, not so much about the others as I haven't really worked on those. Anyway, I have always pondered why this is - not in a direct lineage way as that's a game of Chinese whispers spanning decades - but in a reconstructive way. If Shaolin was all reconstructed, why didn't they reconstruct it in a way that mimicked this manual? I mean honestly, how hard would that be? Why didn't someone just interpret the manual, reconstruct the form from that, and then come out saying that they have the true original form?
    because it would have no backflips.

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  9. #54
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    Modern yinshougun has no backflips

    However, you could add a backflip into any form. Compositionally, a backflip could fit anywhere.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    there were 10 suns in the sky. three eyed god carries mountains on his back and throws them at nine suns, crushing them under the ground.
    I wasn't sure if you are joking on this one.

    I am looking for the source of the story of Er Lang carrying mountains on his shouldering pole.

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post

    The rear hand is always the same. The front hand can grip the staff in two ways. Thumb towards you or thumb away. Thumb towards you is overhand grip. This is standard terminology. Thumb away is underhand. However while in underhand (thumb away) you can rotate the staff in your hand so the palm faces either the sky or the earth. This rotation WITHOUT changing grip is the difference between yin and yang grip as mentioned in the manual, and the essential feature of many of the techniques.

    If we are all agreed to use this terminology we can start to discuss the techniques clearly.
    This kind of stuff is really helpful, thanks. Can you elaborate (if it's possible in this word-based format) on how this rotation changes your structure and helps parry a thrust to the heart? I do understand if you want to mainly keep to discussing the manual.
    Last edited by rett; 10-03-2013 at 01:39 AM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by rett View Post
    This kind of stuff is really helpful, thanks. Can you elaborate (if it's possible in this word-based format) on how this rotation changes your structure and helps parry a thrust to the heart? I do understand if you want to mainly keep to discussing the manual.
    I'll try....

    The weapon is long. A small movement of the hands (positioned at the base and midway) will create a large movement of the tip. When you flick the wrist between the yin and yang position the end of the staff does not simply rotate but instead draws an arc. The size of the arc depends on the movement of the rear hand. If you do not turn over the wrists the staff will not draw a powerful arc it will simply move weakly.

    When thrusted a spear is long and has no lateral strength or structure. So it becomes weightless and even a small push can send it flying away. The arc can deflect the spear in this way. In the classic technique LanNaQiang, you can press his spear down from above, but to do this your palm must be facing down. If your palm is facing up you would have to 'pull' down to knock his spear down, this is not so controlled or powerful.

    When you make contact with the opponents spear sometimes they will stick together and there will be pressure between them, small rotations of the wrist here make a huge difference to how much pressure you can apply as the spear will circle and the direction of force will change. If the opponent feels the structure is weak he can thrust straight in even the though the spears are in contact. You will feel this easily if you cross sticks with someone.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 10-03-2013 at 05:58 AM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post

    The weapon is long. A small movement of the hands (positioned at the base and midway) will create a large movement of the tip. When you flick the wrist between the yin and yang position the end of the staff does not simply rotate but instead draws an arc. The size of the arc depends on the movement of the rear hand. If you do not turn over the wrists the staff will not draw a powerful arc it will simply move weakly.
    nobody flicks their wrist except wushu rubber bendy spears. the longer the spear, the greater the strength you must use.



    yang family spear is a very rough and coarse spear style, there are no fine movements. it uses large brute force movements, it was designed for simple men. the spear shaft is very thick and unbendable. yang family spear is strong enough to attach a bamboo firearm. the average yang family spear is 14 feet long.
    Last edited by bawang; 10-03-2013 at 07:43 AM.

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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    the average yang family spear is 14 feet long.
    Indeed, but we are interested in the use of the Shaolin Staff which is no more than 8 feet.

    I am assuming for most of the techniques we will be discussing that we are using a staff fighting against a short spear in a small group or one to one. One on one I am sure the short light spear is a better weapon.

  15. #60
    Thanks, RDH, that was really clear.

    One last question on this if I may. Would you agree that in executing the arc-shaped parry as described you not only rotate the wrist of the forward hand, but also typically extend the arm a bit (from having a somewhat bent elbow to a straighter elbow)? And that a good part of the strength of the resulting structure is related to the new elbow angle?

    That's how I'm working with it now, and it feels right. But it's happened many times before that something felt right but turned out to be anything but.

    A lot of this is in the parts of the qimeigun I've learned, but I hadn't been given these explanations. Great thread idea.
    Last edited by rett; 10-03-2013 at 09:14 AM.

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