Exposition of Original Shaolin Staff Fighting

[pazman]

Various Martial Arts mentioned are 'YangJia Qiang, SunJia YinShouGun, Taizu ChangQuan, MianZhang DuanDa, Shaolin YeCha Gun'. All of these names exist as Shaolin forms today, With Taizu Changquan and YinShou Gun as two of the most popular even 400 years later.

I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?

I've always heard Yangjia qiang and Liuhe qiang are interchangable terms, but when you look at huge assortment of forms with those names it seems not to be true. On the other hand, filter out some of the flashy opera moves and they boil down to the same handful of techniques and strategies.

More importantly...how were these arts trained back then? I've seen staff training in China that involves paired training that more closely resembles Japanese formal paired kata, but teachers in China seem much more content with teaching solo taolu.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?

I've always heard Yangjia qiang and Liuhe qiang are interchangable terms, but when you look at huge assortment of forms with those names it seems not to be true. On the other hand, filter out some of the flashy opera moves and they boil down to the same handful of techniques and strategies.

More importantly...how were these arts trained back then? I've seen staff training in China that involves paired training that more closely resembles Japanese formal paired kata, but teachers in China seem much more content with teaching solo taolu.

Yang Family were famous, men and women, for their spear play. They were always in the military. Yang Family spear play consists of routines that are based on the length of the spear. So there is the Pear/Plum Blossum spear and the Eight Mother Spear, both two routines within Yang Family Spear. Shaolin still does this "Plum Blossum Spear", of what's left of it.

BUT, Liuhe Spear is meant to be thought of as "SIX Combination" Spear, BECAUSE the methods combine the best ideas of 6 different martial arts masters, Yang being one of them. So Yang Spear is not Liuhe spear.

By the way, Liuhe Spear was considered the most amazingly great spear play to master and it is what Ji Longfeng (aka Ji Jike) used in combination with Shaolin Xing Quan (Shape Boxing - Rooster, Hawk, Monkey, etc) to create what is now Xing Yi Quan. Its was an internal martial art, this spear because you had to practice whole body movement and qigong to master it.

[RenDaHai]

I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?

More importantly...how were these arts trained back then? I've seen staff training in China that involves paired training that more closely resembles Japanese formal paired kata, but teachers in China seem much more content with teaching solo taolu.

Well probably not the same forms no, but the same name has persisted and probably a lot of the technique.

The actual taolu 'YinSHouGunYiLu' is represented in the text. I intend to compare this with the current versions around song shan.

As to training he mentions competition.

He is also asked a question saying that 'The form does not seem a practical method of training' and he answers it is to gain good control over the staff, a steady grip and fluidity and ease of movement.

Interestingly he also says that a lot of the techniques cannot be used in battle since in formation many of the transformations cannot be used. If we refine to just battle technique there are really only a few.

[Tainan Mantis]

The actual taolu 'YinSHouGunYiLu' is represented in the text. I intend to compare this with the current versions around song shan.

I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.

Yin Shou Gun

[bawang]

I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.

Yin Shou Gun

yin hand just means overhand grip.

[Tainan Mantis]

yin hand just means overhand grip.

Yes, I know what that means.
Actually, I base the relationship on analysis of the description of technques of yin shou gun in the book.

[RenDaHai]

I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.

Yin Shou Gun

I see, its quite difficult to compare huh? Song shan actually has quite a lot of different versions of YinShouGun, also there are 6 roads to it in some clans. The version I practice is quite non standard, but I have seen many others. I want to see if I can match it to any.

I think the staff used these days is shorter and used less spear like than of that time, and now QiMeiGun is the most prevalent.

[Tainan Mantis]

Song shan actually has quite a lot of different versions of YinShouGun, also there are 6 roads to it in some clans. The version I practice is quite non standard, but I have seen many others. I want to see if I can match it to any.

Great, I would love to see what you find.

[bawang]

I guess the question is...just because they have the same names, are they really the same forms?

they are not the same forms. the manual describes the forms.

I've always heard Yangjia qiang and Liuhe qiang are interchangable terms, but when you look at huge assortment of forms with those names it seems not to be true. On the other hand, filter out some of the flashy opera moves and they boil down to the same handful of techniques and strategies.

six harmony are six solo drills of yang family spear.

More importantly...how were these arts trained back then?

attacking poles, sparring with soft sticks, sparring with cotton pointed spears

[RenDaHai]

BaWang,

Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?

[bawang]

BaWang,

Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?

its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.

if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.

[RenDaHai]

its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.

if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.

I don't think so. It is not extremely clearly written and he doesn't actually introduce all the techniques he mentions, but a fair amount of what I see is familier. It is going to take me a while to match these techniques up with the modern versions and names since, as I say, the manual is not extremely clear. But I think a lot of it will be represented, certainly some techniques are immediately familiar.

Anyway, I want this thread to be more about the actual techniques, forms and history presented in the book than an argument between us. That said I would like to know if this is the passage you were thinking of in our earlier argument because if not I have missed something.

[bawang]

Anyway, I want this thread to be more about the actual techniques, forms and history presented in the book than an argument between us. That said I would like to know if this is the passage you were thinking of in our earlier argument because if not I have missed something.

its the same passage. whats ur point?

I don't think so. It is not extremely clearly written and he doesn't actually introduce all the techniques he mentions, but a fair amount of what I see is familier.

because you do not have any education in science and arts, and you speak Chinese on the level of a child.

the only discussion you can have is
-the book is very cool
-I know this book, I am also very cool
-the book mentions some kung fu styles, that is very cool

[RenDaHai]

@Bawang,

Level of a Child huh? Thats actually true. There are children who have been born since I have been here and yet speak much better Chinese than me. Never the less my translation of said passage was a lot better than yours. It says nothing about fist being a new thing in the world, just that fist practice is not popular as staff and that Shaolin fist has not reached the zenith of Shaolin Staff. This is probably because fist has more variables than staff and so is more complex

This is a Kung Fu forum. It is written word. Very little actual physical training can go on here, so I suggest this is exactly the kind of thing we can talk about. By talking to other people who are interested I am certain we can unlock more of the manuals teachings.

Lets make this more about the manual, less about our personal disagreements.


@ All

For example, let me highlight something; Actually in the majority of the manual he uses Yin grip not to mean the overhand grip, but to mean still the standard underhand grip, except that the palm is facing down and so there is downwards and inside pressure on the staff. Yang grip is the same grip just with the wrist rotated so that the palm is up putting pressure upwards and outside on the staff. This small wrist movement is the essential feature of stopping a thrust to the heart. The difference is just twisting the staff in your hands while keeping a solid grip. The full change to overhand grip is also present but it is something that is confusing me with terminology used. It is also referred to as shortening the staff, which makes sense.

[Sal Canzonieri]

its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.

if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.

Who care about 'modern shaolin'. Whatever is practiced at modern shaolin is just what was done for them to do exhibitions. That's modern shaolin.

BUT the actual traditional Shaolin Quan is being done all around the countryside and that traditional Shaolin is still alive in the small villages all over Henan. And that stuff makes an appearance through various teachers at the modern Shaolin temple, its still learnable.