Exposition of Original Shaolin Staff Fighting

[bawang]

I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.

Yin Shou Gun

yin hand just means overhand grip.

[RenDaHai]

I have done that and have found no relationship.
Here is a portion of Yin Shou Gun
My version is called 18 moves of Shaolin. The method recorded by Cheng Zengyou is longer.

Yin Shou Gun

I see, its quite difficult to compare huh? Song shan actually has quite a lot of different versions of YinShouGun, also there are 6 roads to it in some clans. The version I practice is quite non standard, but I have seen many others. I want to see if I can match it to any.

I think the staff used these days is shorter and used less spear like than of that time, and now QiMeiGun is the most prevalent.

[bawang]

Anyway, I want this thread to be more about the actual techniques, forms and history presented in the book than an argument between us. That said I would like to know if this is the passage you were thinking of in our earlier argument because if not I have missed something.

its the same passage. whats ur point?

I don't think so. It is not extremely clearly written and he doesn't actually introduce all the techniques he mentions, but a fair amount of what I see is familier.

because you do not have any education in science and arts, and you speak Chinese on the level of a child.

the only discussion you can have is
-the book is very cool
-I know this book, I am also very cool
-the book mentions some kung fu styles, that is very cool

[Sal Canzonieri]

its funny that you guys try to beef up your form and lineage cred by being mentioned in this book.

if you read the book closely you will realize the book actually brings shaolin kung fu great shame. it collected every single shaolin staff technique. and modern shaolin staff contains almost none.

Who care about 'modern shaolin'. Whatever is practiced at modern shaolin is just what was done for them to do exhibitions. That's modern shaolin.

BUT the actual traditional Shaolin Quan is being done all around the countryside and that traditional Shaolin is still alive in the small villages all over Henan. And that stuff makes an appearance through various teachers at the modern Shaolin temple, its still learnable.

[Sal Canzonieri]

BaWang,

Is this the section of the book you were referring to in our previous argument? About fist practice only beginning around this time?

There are various other books older than this one published in 1600s that shows and writes about many fist practice at Shaolin. That Shaolin Temple history book that came out a few years ago by Professor Maheir writes all about them.

[RenDaHai]

@Bawang,

Level of a Child huh? Thats actually true. There are children who have been born since I have been here and yet speak much better Chinese than me. Never the less my translation of said passage was a lot better than yours. It says nothing about fist being a new thing in the world, just that fist practice is not popular as staff and that Shaolin fist has not reached the zenith of Shaolin Staff. This is probably because fist has more variables than staff and so is more complex

This is a Kung Fu forum. It is written word. Very little actual physical training can go on here, so I suggest this is exactly the kind of thing we can talk about. By talking to other people who are interested I am certain we can unlock more of the manuals teachings.

Lets make this more about the manual, less about our personal disagreements.


@ All

For example, let me highlight something; Actually in the majority of the manual he uses Yin grip not to mean the overhand grip, but to mean still the standard underhand grip, except that the palm is facing down and so there is downwards and inside pressure on the staff. Yang grip is the same grip just with the wrist rotated so that the palm is up putting pressure upwards and outside on the staff. This small wrist movement is the essential feature of stopping a thrust to the heart. The difference is just twisting the staff in your hands while keeping a solid grip. The full change to overhand grip is also present but it is something that is confusing me with terminology used. It is also referred to as shortening the staff, which makes sense.

[bawang]

Who care about 'modern shaolin'.

you are modern shaolin

[bawang]

It says nothing about fist being a new thing in the world, just that fist practice is not popular as staff and that Shaolin fist has not reached the zenith of Shaolin Staff. This is probably because fist has more variables than staff and so is more complex

it clearly says boxing is a new thing in shaolin. even your own awkward translation.

This is a Kung Fu forum. It is written word. Very little actual physical training can go on here, so I suggest this is exactly the kind of thing we can talk about. By talking to other people who are interested I am certain we can unlock more of the manuals teachings.

you will never allow anything in the ancient manuals that are contradictory to what you have paid for at dengfeng to change your views about kung fu.

For example, let me help you; Actually in the majority he uses Yin grip not to mean the overhand grip, but to mean still the standard underhand grip, except that the palm is facing down and so there is downwards and inside pressure on the staff.

that's called an overhand grip

[RenDaHai]

that's called an overhand grip

If we are going to discuss this manual, this is the first thing to be very very clear on.

The rear hand is always the same. The front hand can grip the staff in two ways. Thumb towards you or thumb away. Thumb towards you is overhand grip. This is standard terminology. Thumb away is underhand. However while in underhand (thumb away) you can rotate the staff in your hand so the palm faces either the sky or the earth. This rotation WITHOUT changing grip is the difference between yin and yang grip as mentioned in the manual, and the essential feature of many of the techniques.

If we are all agreed to use this terminology we can start to discuss the techniques clearly.

[bawang]

If we are going to discuss this manual, this is the first thing to be very very clear on.

The rear hand is always the same. The front hand can grip the staff in two ways. Thumb towards you or thumb away. Thumb towards you is overhand grip.

palm under weapon is underhand. palm over weapon is overhand.

once again you obsess with appearance and minor details. it always comes back to form.

[RenDaHai]

palm under weapon is underhand. palm over weapon is overhand.

once again you obsess with appearance and minor details. it always comes back to form.

Fine, but that terminology is unclear. It doesn't separate the thumb towards grip and thumb away. Changing the grip between thumb towards and thumb away is a huge feature of the staff. The spear never really does this, the fact the staff can shorten in this way is one of its essential features.

For the correct structure of staff technique the precise way in which the front hand grips the staff IS the most essential feature, so we must be clear. It may be a physically small change but it is far from a minor feature.

[bawang]

Fine, but that terminology is unclear. It doesn't separate the thumb towards grip and thumb away. Changing the grip between thumb towards and thumb away is a huge feature of the staff. The spear never really does this, the fact the staff can shorten in this way is one of its essential features.

For the correct structure of staff technique the precise way in which the front hand grips the staff IS the most essential feature, so we must be clear. It may be a physically small change but it is far from a minor feature.

the "correct structure" is important for getting points in form competitions, not fighting.

which is why you wont touch the actual postures in the manual with a ten foot pole, but obsess over trivial matters like grip.

[RenDaHai]

the "correct structure" is important for getting points in form competitions, not fighting.

which is why you wont touch the actual postures in the manual with a ten foot pole, but obsess over trivial matters like grip.

You have shown your inexperience BaWang.

In weapons sparring structure is EVERYTHING.

Form is too fast to notice these small features. However in sparring with a spear this small wrist rotation and structure is the difference between parrying and being hit. The strength of the structure is what stops you getting hit.

Correct minute structure makes ALL the difference with long weapons and bladed weapons alike.

Trivial matters like grip??? In Spear technique grip and wrist rotation is perhaps the most important feature.

[bawang]

lol "flick of the wrist"
lol "strength of structure"

do u even manual

[Tainan Mantis]

yin hand just means overhand grip.

Yes, I know what that means.
Actually, I base the relationship on analysis of the description of technques of yin shou gun in the book.