talking about hypocracy in kung fu: shaolin monks in america banging sexy white women

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi LFJ,

Thank you for continuing our stimulating conversation!

of course they themselves arent it, but if a teacher has not at least tasted their nature, how can they point toward "it"? and if a student does not have such good roots, how can they know "all things come from mind, and therefore point to mind"?

There is nothing that is not IT. All phenomena are IT. All phenomena are Buddha Mind therefore all phenomena point to Buddha Mind! No teacher is necessary, yet all teachers, even the incompetent ones demonstrate Buddha Nature whether they do so intentionally or not.

Master Chih says, “All behaviors and activities are enlightenment.” – Tun-huang texts, Record III, #87

“Mind is the Buddha, while the cessation of conceptual thought is the Way.” - The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Wan Ling Record, #2

Master Hung says: “All behavior and activity are Thusness. Seeing forms and hearing sound are also Thusness. In fact, all dharmas are Thusness… If you understand the Thusness of all dharmas, then you are a Tathagata. The sutra says: ‘Sentient beings are Thusness. Worthies and sages are also Thusness. All dharmas are also Thusness.’” – Tun-huang texts, Record III, #73

“Enter deeply into it [Buddha-Nature], in all its fullness, by awakening to it yourself. That which is before you is it, in all its fullness, utterly complete.

It is pure Mind, which is the source of everything…– The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Chun Chou Record, #8

“He who, without relying one the teaching of a master, sees Dharma from events is called one of sharp abilities. He who understands from the spoken teachings of a master is called one of dull abilities. – Tun-huang texts, Record I, #24

“It is wrong to insist that without the advice of the pious and learned we cannot obtain liberation.” – Hui-neng

“…the Way of the Buddhas is as dangerous to you as the way of demons...Those who seek Dharma must not seek from the Buddha, nor from the Dharma, nor from the Sangha. They should seek from nowhere. When the Buddha is not sought, there is no Buddha to be found! When the Dharma is not sought, there is no Dharma to be found! When the Sangha is not sought, there is no Sangha to be found!” - The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Wan Ling Record, #9

When one conceives the “need” for a teacher one creates obstruction to direct perception of Buddha Mind!

“’Buddha’ and ‘sentient beings’ are both your own false conceptions. It is because you do not know real Mind that you delude yourselves with such objective concepts. If you WILL conceive a Buddha YOU WILL BE OBSTRUCTED BY THAT BUDDHA!!! And when you conceive of sentient beings, you will be obstructed by those beings. All such dualistic concepts as ’ignorant’ and ‘Enlightened’, ‘pure’ and impure’ are obstructions.” - The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Wan Ling Record, #5

“Because false views are the same as correct views, the bodhisattva is immobile... and it is unnecessary to reject the false to seek the correct….because it is unnecessary for him to reject the false to enter the correct…" – Tun-huang texts, Record I, #29

“You do not see that THE FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINE OF THE DHARMA IS THAT THERE ARE NO DHARMAS, YET THAT THIS DOCTRINE OF NO-DHARMA IS IN ITSELF A DHARMA; AND NOW THAT THE NO-DHARMA DOCTRINE HAS BEEN TRANSMITTED, HOW CAN THE DOCTRINE OF THE DHARMA BE A DHARMA?” – The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Chun Chou Record, #36

yes, and who taught the small vehicle doctrine? the buddha. who taught mahayana? the buddha. one who saw his nature. expedient means is only so in the proper hands, unless a student has the capacity to realize by themselves- which is usually one in a million.

Actually "expedient means" is entirely within the eye of the beholder. When any phenomena awakens one to Buddha Mind, or stimulates deeper insight, it is an "expedient means". It need not even come from a teacher, for since all phenomena are Buddha Mind, all phenomena IS the Buddha and all phenomena reflect Buddha. Since we awaken ourselves, it is Buddha awakening Buddha to Buddha. In essence nothing occurs and nothing is attained.

This conversation IS Dharma, this conversation is Buddha Mind playing with Buddha Mind, but no one can GIVE anyone else that realization. Even pointing to it is useless if one is not able to perceive it for themselves. Yet that "not" perceiving it, is the same as perceiving it because Buddha mind does not hold to distinctions.

So as I mentioned to TGY previously, it is "Nothing doing nothing to nothing!" Nothing is gained, nothing is lost, nothing happened, and no one experienced it!

One in a million is an exaggeration for effect, and means it is rare, but also admits it is NOT impossible. However, even if we accepted it as a statistical fact that means there are nearly 7,000 of these individuals alive today!

We should also be very cautious not to take any specific teaching too literally!

“Above all it is essential not to select some particular teaching suited to a certain occasion, and being impressed by its forming part of the written canon, regard it as an immutable concept. Why so? Because in truth there is no unalterable Dharma which the Tathagata could have preached.” – The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Chun Chou Record, #30

“If you only rid yourselves of the concepts of ordinary and Enlightened, you would find there is no other Buddha than the Buddha in your own Mind.” – The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Chun Chou Record, #31

[Scott R. Brown]

it's basically like when I do PT w/people, I introduce them to the "secret" of good PT, or as I like to call it, the Goldilocks Principle: not too hard, not too easy, just right; the funny thing is, is that while it's very easy to find "too hard" and "too easy", finding "just right" is a bit more difficult - in a way, it's defined more by what it's NOT (too hard / easy) than what it is...

It is not quite the same because when you assist someone in therapy they are gaining something they cannot provide for themselves. And these actions are conditional actions that rely upon other conditional phenomena in order for anything to actually happen.

With Buddha Mind, there is inherently no teacher and no student, and therefore no teaching and no learning. Each of these are just distinctions made by deluded minds or rather as I prefer to view it, as Mind at play. I do not consider delusion a negative condition, merely a condition with no positive or negative value attached.

Inherently deluded and enlightened do not exist, they are just a game Buddha Mind plays. I do not like the general implication of some Buddhist thought, that delusion is somehow a lesser state of being. Delusion is Buddha Mind playing with itself, that is all.

It is like a computer RPG. The player is not really a super secret invincible ninja. They are merely "playing" one. How much they identify with the "pretend character" determines their level of delusion within that game. If they completely forget they are playing a character, they are so immersed within the game, they are totally deluded. But when they come to themselves and remember they are just playing a temporary, artifically constructed character within an artificially constructed game, they are enlightened to the truth and are able to play the game with more freedom and enjoyment.

Within the game players and NPC's die, but in "reality" no one truly dies. Only an artificially constructed, temporary character dies. If your character dies, he either respawns or you start a new game. The "character" dies NOT the player!

Within the game, some win and some lose, but in reality no one loses anything and winning only occurs within the context of the artificially constructed rules of that particular game.

in a more classical sense, teacher and student when they come together meet like two arrows meeting in mid-flight - when the arrows meet, there is teaching / learning; when they miss, both the teacher and the student are "dead"

On the one hand I know of the existence of no teachers, on the other hand, everything is a teacher, because everything is Buddha Mind! You are my teacher, I am your teacher, my job, the sun, the rain, the grass, etc. are all my teachers because they are all constructions of my mind.

But it is up to each one of us to learn for ourselves what we are teaching ourselves. Inherently it is fairly easy to do once one learns that all perceptions are reflections of our own mind and that our own mind is a reflection of Buddha Mind. So, what I think of you, of life, of LFJ, of my wife, my children, my boss, my work, my life, etc so on and so forth is all a reflection of my own Mind. what I experience and perceive and how I choose to interpret it tells me very little about anything OUT THERE, since it is all inherently an illusion constructed by my own mind. But since it is an illusion constructed by my own ind it does tell me a whole lot about what is IN HERE, in my mind, so to speak!

<sites Scott, draws bow...>

Can't catch me, I'm the gingerbread man!

[BoulderDawg]

It is not quite the same because when you assist someone in therapy they are gaining something they cannot provide for themselves. And these actions are conditional actions that rely upon other conditional phenomena in order for anything to actually happen.

With Buddha Mind, there is inherently no teacher and no student, and therefore no teaching and no learning. Each of these are just distinctions made by deluded minds or rather as I prefer to view it, as Mind at play. I do not consider delusion a negative condition, merely a condition with no positive or negative value attached.

Inherently deluded and enlightened do not exist, they are just a game Buddha Mind plays. I do not like the general implication of some Buddhist thought, that delusion is somehow a lesser state of being. Delusion is Buddha Mind playing with itself, that is all.

It is like a computer RPG. The player is not really a super secret invincible ninja. They are merely "playing" one. How much they identify with the "pretend character" determines their level of delusion within that game. If they completely forget they are playing a character, they are so immersed within the game, they are totally deluded. But when they come to themselves and remember they are just playing a temporary, artifically constructed character within an artificially constructed game, they are enlightened to the truth and are able to play the game with more freedom and enjoyment.

Within the game players and NPC's die, but in "reality" no one truly dies. Only an artificially constructed, temporary character dies. If your character dies, he either respawns or you start a new game. The "character" dies NOT the player!

Within the game, some win and some lose, but in reality no one loses anything and winning only occurs within the context of the artificially constructed rules of that particular game.



On the one hand I know of the existence of no teachers, on the other hand, everything is a teacher, because everything is Buddha Mind! You are my teacher, I am your teacher, my job, the sun, the rain, the grass, etc. are all my teachers because they are all constructions of my mind.

But it is up to each one of us to learn for ourselves what we are teaching ourselves. Inherently it is fairly easy to do once one learns that all perceptions are reflections of our own mind and that our own mind is a reflection of Buddha Mind. So, what I think of you, of life, of LFJ, of my wife, my children, my boss, my work, my life, etc so on and so forth is all a reflection of my own Mind. what I experience and perceive and how I choose to interpret it tells me very little about anything OUT THERE, since it is all inherently an illusion constructed by my own mind. But since it is an illusion constructed by my own ind it does tell me a whole lot about what is IN HERE, in my mind, so to speak!

Can't catch me, I'm the gingerbread man!

What does all of that have to do with banging hot white women?

[Lucas]

Banging hot white women is in accordance with the way as long as you arent caught up on banging hot white women. when you bang a hot white women simply because the act of banging is what is happening at that time, and the fact of her being a hot white women is not a concern, then you are truly banging hot white women along the path of truth!

[Scott R. Brown]

What does all of that have to do with banging hot white women?

I don't know a thing about banging white women, my wife is Asian!

[LFJ]

There is nothing that is not IT. All phenomena are IT. All phenomena are Buddha Mind therefore all phenomena point to Buddha Mind! No teacher is necessary, yet all teachers, even the incompetent ones demonstrate Buddha Nature whether they do so intentionally or not.

i cant disagree with that, or any of your supporting quotes. and i dont think i have.

my point is only that those who dont see their nature but teach as if they do calling it "expedient means", even though their very act of teaching (actually any action) is buddha, not only gain no benefit from it but also do not benefit others who are equally as unaware that their own mind is buddha. unless that person has very strong roots, they are both sitting in the dark and only sink.

so while expedient means is unlimited, clearly not everything amounts to it at all times. the requirement as you stated is that it awakens one to buddha mind, or stimulates deeper insight- which is what i've been trying to say.

One in a million is an exaggeration for effect, and means it is rare, but also admits it is NOT impossible.

right, its funny we both used the exact same quote. i from bodhidharma. you from huineng. they both said if we fail to understand by ourselves we'll have to find a teacher. also, they both used the same word for "teacher"- which defined by bodhidharma is one who sees their nature. it is indeed rare that one should be able to understand by themselves, but never impossible.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi LFJ,

It is clinging that causes delusion/ignorance. This means clinging of any kind, including clinging to ideas, concepts and teachings.

If this is true, then it cannot be said that anything is "necessary", including teachers. All teachings are provisional and conditionally based.

Remember, Hui-neng said:

"...it is by our innate wisdom that we enlighten ourselves and even the extraneous help and instruction of a pious and learned friend would be of no use if we were deluded by false doctrines and erroneous views."

While teachers may be helpful, this comment implies that teachers, and thereby teachings, are also useless, because we are enlightened by "our innate wisdom".

By clinging to the idea of "the requirement” or “need" for a teacher, or even a teaching, we create that need. That need does not exist, if we do not create it through our conceptualization.

All concepts and ideas are conditionally based, that is, their reality is founded upon dependent arising. When “hot” arises, “cold” mutually arises, when “teachers” arise, “students” mutually arises. When we do not recognize “hot” as “hot”, “cold” too disappears. When we do not recognize “teachers” as “teachers”, “students" too disappear. Thus when we do not recognize wise as “wise”, “ignorance” disappears.

Teachers are only teachers if we decide they are teachers. That is, teachers are part of a conditionally based duality. By insisting/clinging to the idea of a necessity for a teacher then we create their need and existence. By neither acknowledging, nor negating, the need, requirement, or presence of a teacher, we take one more step towards freeing our minds from the bondage of conceptualization.

We are to free ourselves of clinging, that is “holding on to” anything at all. No one can do that for us. If you are holding a flower in your hand, in order for YOU to let go of it, YOU must let go of it. If another takes if from you, YOU did not let it go, and conversely, if someone hands it to you, YOU must grasp it in order for you to HAVE it.

We create our own delusion/ignorance by our own clinging, and no one can let it go for us. We must let go ourselves!

[uki]

We must let go ourselves!

let go and float away like a wittle itsy-bitsy teeny weenie dandelion seed in a hurricane...

[Scott R. Brown]

let go and float away like a wittle itsy-bitsy teeny weenie dandelion seed in a hurricane...

Or "Dust in the Wind"!

[uki]

Or "Dust in the Wind"!

yeah, but dust doesn't sprout into the weedy little flowers of dharma...

[Scott R. Brown]

yeah, but dust doesn't sprout into the weedy little flowers of dharma...

You mean those beautiful little yellow flowers, whose leaves may be used in salads and roots for medicinal tea? Whose seeds children all over the world find joy in blowing in the wind? Those beautiful little yellow dharma flowers?

[uki]

You mean those beautiful little yellow flowers, whose leaves may be used in salads and roots for medicinal tea? Whose seeds children all over the world find joy in blowing in the wind? Those beautiful little yellow dharma flowers?

yep... they're the ones.

[LFJ]

It is clinging that causes delusion/ignorance. This means clinging of any kind, including clinging to ideas, concepts and teachings.

If this is true, then it cannot be said that anything is "necessary", including teachers. All teachings are provisional and conditionally based.

Remember, Hui-neng said:

"...it is by our innate wisdom that we enlighten ourselves and even the extraneous help and instruction of a pious and learned friend would be of no use if we were deluded by false doctrines and erroneous views."

While teachers may be helpful, this comment implies that teachers, and thereby teachings, are also useless, because we are enlightened by "our innate wisdom".

By clinging to the idea of "the requirement” or “need" for a teacher, or even a teaching, we create that need. That need does not exist, if we do not create it through our conceptualization.

..............

its not so necessary to overanalyze this. it is very simple. this quote by huineng basically follows what was said before.

bodhidharma/ huineng make three main points here:

1) if one fails to understand by themselves, they must find a good teacher.

2) that teacher must see their nature, otherwise they are no good teacher.

and now;

3) if we dont follow that teacher's instruction, it is completely useless.

this third point is only saying that just hearing it is not enough if we continue with our previous habits. we must do it. we must make the effort. the teaching is only useless if we dont follow it.

the korean seon master seung sahn was once asked by his students;

"teacher, you always say the same thing. you always teach the same thing. always the.. same.. teaching. why do you always say the.. same.. thing?"

master seung sahn replied;

"yes, i always say the same thing. but nobody ever really hears it or follows it."

[uki]

the true teacher is found within ourselves...

[Drake]

Uki, did you happen to write the script for the last two Matrix movies?

Or did you know what you must know, as knowing will be what leads you to know... WHAT YOU ALREADY KNOW!