form, Pattern, Structure

[Hendrik]

I think it is the time to define

Form, Pattern, and Structure clearly.




Form is the shape such as a Tan sau.

Pattern is the dynamic Trend while the Form in action.

Structure is the interelationship and the basic elements which give raise to the type of the pattern.




Without a clear definition it is hopeless discussion.

Form, pattern, and Structure makes up a system.






Also, the Chinese Ancestor WCK is using system thinking instead of the modern western analytical thinking.


The Chinese ancestors of WCK deal with Big picture, trend of pattern, interrelationship of the different components and components characteristics.

The modern scientific thinking is keep disecting a part to a simple part and at then end everything becomes atom. and nothing......


The system thinking is about synthesis while the modern scientific thinking is about analysis in general.


One of the biggest issue in past 60 years of WCK is more and more people using the modern scientific thinking trying to understand the System thinking model of the WCK ancestor.

This is a dead trap. Ie: breathing is a system with interrelationship between nose and lung. there needs to be nose and lung elements there. There needs to have an interrelationship to have breathing happen. That is system thinking.

Cutting down to nose by itself or lung by itself doesnt give you breathing, even with lung and nose combine but without knowing the interrelationship doesnt give you breathing.




So what is flow? what is the form, pattern, structure of flow? What is dissolving? what is the form, pattern, structure of dissolving? what is resistance? what is the form, pattern, structure of resistance?


I always tell people to go Baisi, why? if you keep thinking in the modern Scientific analitical way and what I am telling you is System thinking. It is hopeless for you to understand what I said. So, get some one who knows the stuffs and bring one up from the basic is very important.


Serious stuffs, but some will say, "oh, I know that too. I got that too....ect" even one is totally clueless, those are really rediculus and stupid.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Benny Meng's guys focus on time, space, and energy. Would you say that they are hyper focused on one of the aspects? Pattern perhaps?

[Hendrik]

Since now you have the tools, examine everything closely and see for yourself what is what.

[duende]

Benny Meng's guys focus on time, space, and energy. Would you say that they are hyper focused on one of the aspects? Pattern perhaps?

Actually the original employment and usage of the terms "Time, Space, and Energy" in relation to WC and the art of combat come directly from HFY's GM Garrett Gee.... From whom Benny Meng learned it.

The idea is bring all three into a state of focus. When this occurs the WC practitioner has achieved the third bridge or what we call "Weng Kiu" (focus) Which along with San Kiu (awareness) and Fau Kiu (wandering) constitute our Saam Mo Kiu philosophy. However this does not mean that Fau Kiu or Saan Kiu are therefore negatives. To use these terms in this matter is missing the point completely.

FWIW... I agree with Hendriks statements about the importance of understanding WC as a system. Knowing what makes a system... The inherant logic flow can really help the WC practioner trace the system's continuity and easiy see how the system works at both micro and macro perspectives.

For without this insight one can not make the connections between body mechanics, structure, energy, strategy and tactics etc.... In a system, all of the above work in harmony. Each one supporting and benefitting from the other.

[Lee Chiang Po]

You know, instead of using all the Chinese terms, which can be interpreted in several ways, maybe just speaking in plain English might help. I see that most here do speak English to some degree, so would it not be easier to get a point across. Sometimes in trying to make sense of some of these discussions it is easy to lose focus. Things like third bridge, wandering, intent, and a huge list of other things that can confuse what a person is attempting to say.
Hendrik is the worst about this. I know English is not his first language, but he adds to that by speaking in philosophical terms, or attempting to. I have a feeling he knows quite a bit, but I simply get lost in what he is saying. Not trying to be nasty, just wishing I could get involved even if it is just to read. I am American born, never learned Chinese more than a little bit, and find it difficult to follow when people are using terms that generalize for the most part rather than precise statements or indications. You can make these statements to 10 different people and each one is going to interpret what was said in 10 different ways when using these terms, when if just plain English would have been so precise that every one of them might have understood.

[stonecrusher69]

You know, instead of using all the Chinese terms, which can be interpreted in several ways, maybe just speaking in plain English might help. I see that most here do speak English to some degree, so would it not be easier to get a point across. Sometimes in trying to make sense of some of these discussions it is easy to lose focus. Things like third bridge, wandering, intent, and a huge list of other things that can confuse what a person is attempting to say.
Hendrik is the worst about this. I know English is not his first language, but he adds to that by speaking in philosophical terms, or attempting to. I have a feeling he knows quite a bit, but I simply get lost in what he is saying. Not trying to be nasty, just wishing I could get involved even if it is just to read. I am American born, never learned Chinese more than a little bit, and find it difficult to follow when people are using terms that generalize for the most part rather than precise statements or indications. You can make these statements to 10 different people and each one is going to interpret what was said in 10 different ways when using these terms, when if just plain English would have been so precise that every one of them might have understood.

Your right if one really knowns their system forwards and backwards then one can explain it in a simple way in which anyone could understand,but you see they won't because you would get it and unless you're in the club you won't.

[duende]

Your right if one really knowns their system forwards and backwards then one can explain it in a simple way in which anyone could understand,but you see they won't because you would get it and unless you're in the club you won't.

what is it you don't understand, or find confusing??? I'd be happy to explain it in more detail for you. :-)

I use the Chinese terms out of respect for the culture, but more imortantly because I truly believe not everything is simply translateable in English. This goes for many other languages as well and not just Chinese. Much gets "lost in translation". I know it is a cliche' but there is truth to it.
Best

[Yoshiyahu]

You know, instead of using all the Chinese terms, which can be interpreted in several ways, maybe just speaking in plain English might help. I see that most here do speak English to some degree, so would it not be easier to get a point across. Sometimes in trying to make sense of some of these discussions it is easy to lose focus. Things like third bridge, wandering, intent, and a huge list of other things that can confuse what a person is attempting to say.
Hendrik is the worst about this. I know English is not his first language, but he adds to that by speaking in philosophical terms, or attempting to. I have a feeling he knows quite a bit, but I simply get lost in what he is saying. Not trying to be nasty, just wishing I could get involved even if it is just to read. I am American born, never learned Chinese more than a little bit, and find it difficult to follow when people are using terms that generalize for the most part rather than precise statements or indications. You can make these statements to 10 different people and each one is going to interpret what was said in 10 different ways when using these terms, when if just plain English would have been so precise that every one of them might have understood.

I see Hendrik is attempted to druge up info on many different calibers. Interesting

So hendrik what is your opinion of Flow and Breath utilization. How does breath assist one with WC. How can not using the breath hinder your WC? Please share?

Also why is flow? How does it differ from the basic structure of Karatka.

[Lee Chiang Po]

what is it you don't understand, or find confusing??? I'd be happy to explain it in more detail for you. :-)

I use the Chinese terms out of respect for the culture, but more imortantly because I truly believe not everything is simply translateable in English. This goes for many other languages as well and not just Chinese. Much gets "lost in translation". I know it is a cliche' but there is truth to it.
Best

I have difficulty when people talk in circles really. Using chinese terms can be useful I suppose, but then I can explain my WC in plain English with no difficulty. And people seem to understand me. I respect the culture, but it is not my culture. I was born here and am not of the Chinese culture. There really isn't a need to translate from Chinese to English if one uses English terms to begin with.
A good example of this is Sil Lim. It is translated as a little idea. It was translated to me by my father, who spoke Canton, as use a little imagination. Now, this can be construed as pretty much the same thing, but it really isn't when you get right down to it. This is why Yoshi keeps asking the same questions over and over and over and getting answers that one has to spend a long time trying to figure out what was said. It is really frustrating. I think he does it on purpose. But thank you anyway for the kind offer.

[Hendrik]

I have difficulty when people talk in circles really. Using chinese terms can be useful I suppose, but then I can explain my WC in plain English with no difficulty. And people seem to understand me. I respect the culture, but it is not my culture. I was born here and am not of the Chinese culture. There really isn't a need to translate from Chinese to English if one uses English terms to begin with.
A good example of this is Sil Lim. It is translated as a little idea. It was translated to me by my father, who spoke Canton, as use a little imagination. Now, this can be construed as pretty much the same thing, but it really isn't when you get right down to it. This is why Yoshi keeps asking the same questions over and over and over and getting answers that one has to spend a long time trying to figure out what was said. It is really frustrating. I think he does it on purpose. But thank you anyway for the kind offer.

You sure can explain your WC in plain English with no difficulty. However, is your WC accord to the WC which the Chinese ancestors of WC created?

[duende]

I have difficulty when people talk in circles really. Using chinese terms can be useful I suppose, but then I can explain my WC in plain English with no difficulty. And people seem to understand me. I respect the culture, but it is not my culture. I was born here and am not of the Chinese culture. There really isn't a need to translate from Chinese to English if one uses English terms to begin with.
A good example of this is Sil Lim. It is translated as a little idea. It was translated to me by my father, who spoke Canton, as use a little imagination. Now, this can be construed as pretty much the same thing, but it really isn't when you get right down to it. This is why Yoshi keeps asking the same questions over and over and over and getting answers that one has to spend a long time trying to figure out what was said. It is really frustrating. I think he does it on purpose. But thank you anyway for the kind offer.

If you are content that your understanding of WC is readiy acessable in an English-only environment then more power to you.
I for one find deeper meanings in getting as close to the source of knowledge as possible. If it means learning some Catonese, then so be it. Their is a saying.. If you want the freshest water, you need to go drink from the spring. Not the water buckets that have been carried miles upon miles to you.

[stonecrusher69]

what is it you don't understand, or find confusing??? I'd be happy to explain it in more detail for you. :-)

I use the Chinese terms out of respect for the culture, but more imortantly because I truly believe not everything is simply translateable in English. This goes for many other languages as well and not just Chinese. Much gets "lost in translation". I know it is a cliche' but there is truth to it.
Best

I don't find what was wrote confusing. I was just agreeing and responding to Lee Chiang Po post. We don't need to use Chinese jargon to explain W.C. If you understand it can be explained in western terms or demo so the person would understand. This has noting to do with respect for Chinese culture. I respect all cultures. One is not better then the other just different. My sifu is Chinese yet he teaches me in a way I would understand from my point of view which is what a good teacher should do. I do the same way.

[Lee Chiang Po]

You sure can explain your WC in plain English with no difficulty. However, is your WC accord to the WC which the Chinese ancestors of WC created?

That is a good question. Is yours? My father taught me, as well as my older brothers, whom he also taught. His WC, he called Hung Fa, came from China, taught to him by elders that I feel certain had ancestors too. It would certainly be recognizable to anyone that practices WC today. I would hope. My father spoke poor English. Pigeon, it was called. My 2 older brothers spoke Canton well enough to tell me exactly what he was attempting to tell me. He refused to let the younger brothers and sisters learn Chinese, mostly because we were Americans. I picked up some of it, but have not spoken any Chinese in many years now. Some of it is burned into my brain I suppose, but not very much.
My problem with speaking in Chinese terms is that most of these terms can also be interpreted several ways, and this can cause confusion when trying to understand what a person is saying. A good example is using the term disolve. You can not disolve a persons force. Not in the disolve sense of the word. It is like disarm a person first then do this and that. How in the devil are you supposed to disarm the person? Defining something in common terms that can be more explicit and direct to a point can be far more effective than using general terms that can actually be interpreted to mean several things. You leave too much for the imagination. That is why you have people asking the same questions over and over. You answer in terms that make no sense. Maybe to a 200 year old Chinese man, but not on an English speaking forum. Or predomanently so. I am not trying to be ugly about this. I am ugly enough now. But after many days and many posts to the thread the same questions are being asked. And that is the reason for it. If an answer were to be direct and to the point it would not require the same questions be asked repeatedly. Just saying.
Oh, and my older brother told me that I learned faster than any of them did. I lay that off on the fact that he and Man were explaining to me in English. If you go to a Chinese school, you will not learn anything until you learn the language.

LCP

[Hendrik]

My father taught me, as well as my older brothers, whom he also taught. His WC, he called Hung Fa, came from China, taught to him by elders that I feel certain had ancestors too. It would certainly be recognizable to anyone that practices WC today. I would hope. My father spoke poor English. Pigeon, it was called. My 2 older brothers spoke Canton well enough to tell me exactly what he was attempting to tell me. He refused to let the younger brothers and sisters learn Chinese, mostly because we were Americans. I picked up some of it, but have not spoken any Chinese in many years now. Some of it is burned into my brain I suppose, but not very much.

ok.

My problem with speaking in Chinese terms is that most of these terms can also be interpreted several ways, and this can cause confusion when trying to understand what a person is saying.

That is because you have never really study the classical Chinese.

A good example is using the term disolve. You can not disolve a persons force.Not in the disolve sense of the word. It is like disarm a person first then do this and that. How in the devil are you supposed to disarm the person?

For your level of Kung fu, you certainly right.

However, is that the case of the IMA master?

You leave too much for the imagination. That is why you have people asking the same questions over and over. You answer in terms that make no sense.

Perhaps I leave too much based on the level of Kung fu instead of imagination.

Oh, and my older brother told me that I learned faster than any of them did. I lay that off on the fact that he and Man were explaining to me in English. If you go to a Chinese school, you will not learn anything until you learn the language.

Ok, you are the fast learner compare with some others.

However, that doesnt said you understand what is the Chinese ancestors are teaching. isnt it?

May be it is the time to start learn some real Chinese classical stuffs? Perhaps, after that you will change your mind and you will start to see where do my question comes from? Until you are there, you dont know.

[Yoshiyahu]

ok.





That is because you have never really study the classical Chinese.






For your level of Kung fu, you certainly right.

However, is that the case of the IMA master?





Perhaps I leave too much based on the level of Kung fu instead of imagination.










Ok, you are the fast learner compare with some others.

However, that doesnt said you understand what is the Chinese ancestors are teaching. isnt it?

May be it is the time to start learn some real Chinese classical stuffs? Perhaps, after that you will change your mind and you will start to see where do my question comes from? Until you are there, you dont know.

So where does one start with the classical stuff? How does one start to learn the classical stuff?