favor

[Thomas316]

hello hello everyone. i need a small favor. im interested in seeking reliable historical evidence that some chinese martial arts and okinawan karate were never created for the purpose of zen or enlightenment. can anybody help? thanks.

[David Jamieson]

i think it's pretty safe to say that most martial arts have little if anything to do with zen at all.

you'd have to find evidence to the contrary if anything.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Outside of some possible MODERN exceptions, all TMA, be them chinese, Japanese, korean or whatnot, were created for combat.
Any "spirituality" was added later.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Please don't do that. If the truth gets out, at least half the members of this board will be involved in a group seppuku, and I will have no one to flame the hell out of.

[lkfmdc]

how about the two dozen or so military mannuals we still have copies of that show martial arts, talk about how to use them to kill and make NO MENTION of buddhism, spirituallity etc?

yeah, but if we do that a few of the forum are sure to committ suicide

[SPJ]

kara te or tang shou or china hand.

it has nothing to do with chan or zen.

unfortunately, meditative meanings are incorporated in modern times.

do the way

ju do: gentle way

a ki do: harmony way

kara te do: way of empty hand

---

they are to cultivate some characters or spiritual persuits in addition to fighting

[SPJ]

if you strip the way away

then

you have the original techniques

ju jitsu

a ki jitsu

kara te jitsu

so take your pick.

so you have wu shu (bu jitsu) and not wu dao (bu do).

[SanHeChuan]

hello hello everyone. i need a small favor. im interested in seeking reliable historical evidence that some chinese martial arts and okinawan karate were never created for the purpose of zen or enlightenment. can anybody help? thanks.

You initial claim that most (if any) martial arts were created for the purpose of practicing a religion is erroneous. Where did you come to this position in the first place, it is not a conclusion anyone with more that cursory information of the martial arts would commonly colligate. Against whom do you need to prove you point? Hippies or Zealots?

Though there were many traditions of warrior monks from Buddhism, Zen, and Taoism. Many were similar to that of crusaders or Teutonic knights in that they were faithful but not ordained members of the Church/Temple, having not taken vows, but more like laymen “employed” by the Church. They were temple guards as in the case of Shaolin or the instruments of political feuds like the Sohei of Japan.

Shaolin monks are said to have taken up the martial arts to keep themselves healthy enough to complete their long chants, or to defend themselves from bandits, or more likely just introduced into the temple by monks and laymen who had previously learned the martial arts, but either way they got their martial arts from secular sources. The majority of Shaolin monks have always been non-martial monks, and it is not required for shaolin monks to practice martial arts.

Taoist monks or the Japanese Yamabushi could be said to have practiced their martial arts as a part of their religious practice, as the practice of the martial arts was suppose to lead to supernatural powers. Though, I don’t know that you would call it an act of worship.

I am unaware of any Martial arts being practiced by monks on Okinawa. Martial arts in Okinawa were “supposed” to be exclusive to the Pechin, or warrior class of Okinawa.

However all martial arts originated from folk wrestling and hunting methods which became combat arts designed for the battlefield and then latter modified and adapted for self-defense and other purposes. The Majority of Martial arts even those once practiced in the temples have little connection to any religion beyond a historical affiliation. Most martial arts are wholly secular in origin and practice.

[Dragonzbane76]

Please don't do that. If the truth gets out, at least half the members of this board will be involved in a group seppuku, and I will have no one to flame the hell out of.

how about the two dozen or so military mannuals we still have copies of that show martial arts, talk about how to use them to kill and make NO MENTION of buddhism, spirituallity etc?

yeah, but if we do that a few of the forum are sure to committ suicide

Holy SH!t, you mean martial arts isn't some spiritual mumbo jumbo????

Any you guys need someone to lop your head off while you gut yourselves??

I'm available monday and thursdays in the evening, other than that you'll have to find someone else.

seriously does this actually suprise anyone? Only in recent years have people added the "zen/spiritual" crap. martial "meaning war like" does not come as a surprise to me. People just need an excuse for some things and here is a prime example.

[uki]

seriously does this actually suprise anyone? Only in recent years have people added the "zen/spiritual" crap. martial "meaning war like" does not come as a surprise to me. People just need an excuse for some things and here is a prime example.

holy effing hell... idiotcy truly has no limits.

[Dragonzbane76]

that it is rampant...

[uki]

that it is rampant...

and you're part of the trampled.

[Lokhopkuen]

If you started with yourself sh!t howdy I'd pay to see that!!

Holy SH!t, you mean martial arts isn't some spiritual mumbo jumbo????

Any you guys need someone to lop your head off while you gut yourselves??

I'm available monday and thursdays in the evening, other than that you'll have to find someone else.

seriously does this actually suprise anyone? Only in recent years have people added the "zen/spiritual" crap. martial "meaning war like" does not come as a surprise to me. People just need an excuse for some things and here is a prime example.

[jdhowland]

... seeking reliable historical evidence that some chinese martial arts and okinawan karate were never created for the purpose of zen or enlightenment.

One source that comes to mind is the books by Donn F. Draeger on classical budo and bujutsu of Japan. As I recall, these are historical surveys but have some reference to older to historical works from the period in which zen began to influence the development of modern budo.

It is true that some zen/chan practitioners adapted martial arts skills as methods of correcting mental processes. Of course, adaptation is not the same as creating the arts for that purpose.

There are some old Japanese ryu that include observance of shinto or of mikkyo esoteric buddhist ritual (or both). Zen wasn't as popular for practical reasons. Among the bushi class warriors could not expect to live long enough to attain "awakening" in this life. It was magical practices, more than meditative skills, that helped them face their hard lives and the likelihood of early death.

In China, the frequent references to taoist and buddhist themes in martial arts traditions indicate cultural connections within Chinese society, but this does not mean that religious practices were the origin of these arts.

jd