Is Southern Praying Mantis the same style as "phoenix eye fist" kung fu/Chukka?

[Yum Cha]

Hi guys,
We exercised this thought train on an earlier thread last year sometime. The basic conclusion is that Dragon, Pak Mei and SPM all came from the same kind of stuff, - the three masters were contemporary, and there was the power dynamic added from Southern White Crane, the 'faat ging'.

The external stuff is all mostly hakka family style stuff. Loong Ying has more heavy power, Pak Mei and SPM are more 'springy' - SPM uses dynamic tension, Pak Mei uses hyper extension to get there. The end result is rather similar to my superficial examination.

Yes, Cheung Lai Cheun and Lam Yeu Gwai grew up studying together, and shared a kwoon as young men. They studied from Lam's father, I believe, who studied from a monk "Hoi Fung Sim Si" according to my Dutch mates.

The SPM link, which I can't remember exactly, is contemporary. Perhaps someone else can chip in. 1900 to 1930s is the period in question.

[Steeeve]

Whats about Yau kung mun a blend of pak mei with dragon a little bit of spm .....
its not whos right its whos left

[jo]

Someone correct me on this, as I don't quite recall, but I believe Lam Sang, Chun Lai Chuen, and Lam Yui Kwai were all aquainted with each other, and all studied with a Monk. Might have been Lee Siem Si?
(where's Sam, Doc Stier, and Mantis 108, and Jo when ya need them?)

Why don't you ask your teacher?

-jo

[jo]

Whats about Yau kung mun a blend of pak mei with dragon a little bit of spm .....
its not whos right its whos left

And there are those who can use both the right and left equally.

-jo

[TenTigers]

Why don't you ask your teacher?

-jo

don't even go there, jo. >:-p "thppppppp!" ;-) Anyone who knows me, or has had any interaction with me knows I am always researching. That is not a reflection on my teachers, or myself, but on those don't look deeply into their art's origins..
You and I both know that here are many versions of the origins of the style. Each line has their own story, We have one, but I am interested in seeing the other versions. Even though there are others, each one may have a common thread.

[kungCopper]

Hey lets make this easy, TT what has your teacher told you about the origins, or what has his teacher told him on the origins of this art? I too am always reasearching. I heard this is the art someone used to kill Hung Hei Goon. I was told this is why Wong Kay Ying sent his son to learn Iron wire as that is the only technique that can close off the points attacked in the south mantis forms.
Also I heard Jook Lum temple was started by two famous south shaolin monks, one was San Te (Sam Dat). Of course this is just what I was told.

[LaterthanNever]

Yum Cha,

Thanks for the input. But..

"We exercised this thought train on an earlier thread last year sometime. The basic conclusion is that Dragon, Pak Mei and SPM all came from the same kind of stuff"

That wasn't my question...

What if I rephrased it this way..Does anyone teach the "phoenix eye fist" system in the USA? If so..where? Thanks..

[chusauli]

Hey lets make this easy, TT what has your teacher told you about the origins, or what has his teacher told him on the origins of this art? I too am always reasearching. I heard this is the art someone used to kill Hung Hei Goon. I was told this is why Wong Kay Ying sent his son to learn Iron wire as that is the only technique that can close off the points attacked in the south mantis forms.
Also I heard Jook Lum temple was started by two famous south shaolin monks, one was San Te (Sam Dat). Of course this is just what I was told.

Ah yes, great kung fu history from Kung Fu Theatre, courtesy of Shaw Bros. LOL!

[Yum Cha]

Yum Cha,

Thanks for the input. But..

"We exercised this thought train on an earlier thread last year sometime. The basic conclusion is that Dragon, Pak Mei and SPM all came from the same kind of stuff"

That wasn't my question...

What if I rephrased it this way..Does anyone teach the "phoenix eye fist" system in the USA? If so..where? Thanks..

If my comment doesn't make sense to you, perhaps you should consider I was responding to someone else instead?

Good luck with your search...

[jo]

As an oral tradition, the stories have been changed over time by people for various reasons.

Thats just human nature.

-jo

[kungCopper]

Yeah there seems to be a lot of "ORAL" traditions in CMA.

Now if only this guy TT could share his teachers story, maybe we can compare all of our Shaw Brothers epics and move this thread. I would guess we all agree that Pheonix eye fist (Chu ga) is not the same as Southern Mantis (Chu/Chow Gar). Now lets get to JookLum discussion, which is what this thread was derailed for.

Is it Snake or is it Mantis? Do I train or type?

[TenTigers]

awright, copper. (said in my best Bogie impression) good idea.
This weekend, I am studying Zheng-Gu Tui-Na, so I don't have the time to wade through all the links. But I will when I get back.
In the meantime, if anyone else would like to post some versions, all the better.
As Jo said, they are only oral traditions, and should be taken with a grain of salt, but it would be interesting (to me, at least) to see common threads.

[kungCopper]

Okay TT, thats medicine a whole other subject, maybe for kung fu medicine forum, now how about answering, whats your schools take on Jook Lum as orally given to you? This way we can ALL compare, to see if there are common threads. By the way who do you study from? If your proud enough to answer. When you reveal who you study from, I too will do the same.

[TenTigers]

this is a compilation from several Kwong Sai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai sites. Each version is basically the same, and is basically the version I was told, although each one has one or two details here and there.

Sam Dart/Sum Dot, a Monk from Tibet stayed at Fukien Siu-Lum Ji before founding Jook Lum Ji, on Lung Fu San in the 1800s.(one source says earlier, I was told 1860's) He was apparently also known as Hung Mei Do Yan, meaning the Red Eyebrow Daoist. His style was Nam Tong Long -Southern Mantis.
Sam Dot taught a fellow Monk, Lee Siem Si-who by some sources was also known as Hung Mui-Red Plum Flower Monk. Siem is Cantonese for Chan, or Zen.
Lee Siem Si taught Chung Yu Chang/Chung Yel Jung, a layman follower at Jook Lum Ji. Chung Yu Chang's nickname was "The Poison Snake." According to one source, he was also the first of the Guangdong Sup Fu.
Lee Siem came to Hong Kong in the 1920's to supervise the rebuilding of the Jook Lum Temple of Hong Kong (Kowloon today) and to build another temple in Macao. According to the late Grandmaster Lum Wing Fay (Lum Sang) (1910-1992) Lee Siem was well over 100 years old. The old monk took one of Chung Yu Chang's youngest students, Lum Wing Fay, as a traveling companion and aide. Lum Wing Fay accompanied Lee Siem for seven years.

[TenTigers]

the frustrating thing is, I can't seem to be able to find out anything about Sam Dart's Gung-Fu. What was it before it evolved into Mantis?
It's like Adam and Eve, rather than Darwin.
(jeez, now I'm gonna pizz off the Christians!)