Who Locked The Door?

[Phil Redmond]

We can only speculate, but I think some of the weapons were likely individual inovations rather than being part of a particular system. Some might have even developed entire fighting systems around a particular weapon. And being that the powers that be at the times did not allow their citizens to own or carry weapons, they had to come up with the use of common items or tools as a substitute. As for the pole, the monks often traveled and they had to deal with bandits as well as large wild animals. A pole would be a good weapon in such cases, especially if the monk had some sort of fighting form with it. Just poking at something might work, but it works better if you have some poking skills.
As for Wing Chun, I think that it had a great deal with who the practitioners were and what they had on hand. If you lived on a junk and a long pole was your tool for helping move it about, then it would only seem logical to learn other skills with it. After all, they had likely seen the poles used elsewhere. And the knives? I can imagine that they evolved as weapons because they were available as well. The acrobats did lots of dance and stage play stuff, and butterfly knives were commonly used in these productions, so why not learn to fight fancy with them? It all comes about through need or oppertunity. When Wing Chun came out of China it brought it, traditional forms and weapons. However, just watching people from different lineages do the SLT you can see that there is a great deal difference from one to the next. At the time WC was being taught and used in daily life, it probably did undergo lots of change time and again, especially as it went from one person to the next, but they were probably not so fixed on traditional as it is today. Probably more concerned with making what they had work for them under the current circumstances. Westerners go to great extent to try keeping things as traditional as possible, even to the extent of learning the language. You hear all the time people saying things like, that isn't WC, or it don't look like WC, or WC don't have that. Well, as long as you can follow the basic concepts it is WC.

LCP

Good post. My WC might not look like the other guy's therefore it sucks?.. . . lol.
Most intelligent martial artists don't think this way.

[SAAMAG]

Things that don't evolve become extinct.

That's a money quote right there. Probably because I say the same thing.

[Hardwork108]

Unfortunately, many of the people who try to "improve", "add on to" or evolve Wing Chun needlessly have not themselves grasped the full potential of this art.

There is a lot there to be explored, understood,perfected and then expanded upon. However, for this kind of an approach a certain amount of wisdom, insight and even intelligence is required. Sadly in today's fast food culture this kind of mindset is difficult to come by.

HW108

[JPinAZ]

I got it from a reliable source that the Benny Meng contingent of HFY taught reasonably sophisticated ground grappling with their Wing Chun. In my mind that would qualify as MMA style training. Was I misinformed by a misinformed source?

I can't speak for what Benny is doing now, but my past understanding of the Meng's Martial Arts programs does include grappling and MMA-type curriculums (I think this is within the Meng's 3-halls Shaolin/4-ranges of combat program?). And, they have good success with.
But, this is a Meng's MA/VTM curriculum. It is not the same as HFY WCK system curriculum that is certified only through the HFY HQ.

I hope I have helped.

[JPinAZ]

Unfortunately, many of the people who try to "improve", "add on to" or evolve Wing Chun needlessly have not themselves grasped the full potential of this art.

There is a lot there to be explored, understood,perfected and then expanded upon. However, for this kind of an approach a certain amount of wisdom, insight and even intelligence is required. Sadly in today's fast food culture this kind of mindset is difficult to come by.

HW108

Couldn't agree more!

[Eric_H]

I got it from a reliable source that the Benny Meng contingent of HFY taught reasonably sophisticated ground grappling with their Wing Chun. In my mind that would qualify as MMA style training. Was I misinformed by a misinformed source?

Also, I should say that the Benny Meng contingent of HFY is what people are suspicious of. I have never heard a single negative comment about Garrett Gee.

It was my understanding that the VTM has chosen to focus on Black Flag Eng Chun. Any MMA or WC style training they would currently do is probably under that banner. I don't know anything about Black Flag Eng Chun, maybe it requires additional ground grappling knowledge in order to be a viable art. HFY has a "ground fighting" training layer but it is not akin to "ground wrestling" as seen with Judo/BJJ.

As JPinAZ said above you may be confusing the Meng's Martial Art's program with the standard HFY program, they are not the same.

[Hardwork108]

Couldn't agree more!

Thank you.

Just wanted to add that from what I have been taught, it is important to study Wing Chun (or any kung fu system) holistically and once the essence of the system is studied and understood then one can "improve" and "evolve" the system through a more personal path of discovery.

Of course, one needs to have access to genuine Wing Chun knowledge (genuine school/lineage)/sifu) to start with.

HW108

[HumbleWCGuy]

It was my understanding that the VTM has chosen to focus on Black Flag Eng Chun. Any MMA or WC style training they would currently do is probably under that banner. I don't know anything about Black Flag Eng Chun, maybe it requires additional ground grappling knowledge in order to be a viable art. HFY has a "ground fighting" training layer but it is not akin to "ground wrestling" as seen with Judo/BJJ.

As JPinAZ said above you may be confusing the Meng's Martial Art's program with the standard HFY program, they are not the same.

I am sure that you guys are telling the truth about what HFY really is.

However, my source is telling the truth as well. The information that I got long predated any talk of Eng Chun. The thing with VTM is that it is/was the most vocal faction of HFY and setting public impression. My source told me that he was left with the clear sense that ground grappling was a part of the HFY curriculum.

[duende]

Using forms/techniques from other martial arts for understanding and training purposes is not the same as dedicated teaching or incorporation of these others styles into one's system.

Just a side note