hung mun hand signals

[Phil Redmond]

Chinese freemasons actually have nothing to do with freemasonry as it is known in the west. The similarity ends at calling it freemasonry.

I'm sure those who are freemasons know this. There is a hugely obvious reason why.

Well, I was accepted to a Hung Mun lodge because I was already a Master Mason. I was told that Hung Mun acknowledged our charter.

[David Jamieson]

I'm not arguing about charters and such. I know there's an understanding.

However:

In the West, the Tiandihui/Hongmen has sometimes adopted the name "Chinese Freemasons", on the basis of the strong superficial parallels between the two; both have quasi-religious aspects, make use of esoteric symbolism, and include many factions. However, they have different ethical systems, different origins, and different purposes.

[TenTigers]

The first Chinese immigrants arrived in 1820. George Washington was Master of his Lodge in the US. In fact, most of the people who signed the Declaration of Independance were Freemasons.
So I am not sure how much an influence Chinese FM had on Western FM, unless you are referring to Western in the sense of Europeans. Then it would be a whle different story.

[Ao Qin]

I'm not getting into this tonight, but;

#1 - There is no such thing as Chinese "Freemasonry" - the term was adapted to make it more "palitable" for Westerners. The Tongs who took this name may have had "some" exposure to the HK British Freemasons, and have used this term to integrate themselves / deflect critisism from their own going-ons. And the British were every bit as secretive / racist as the Chinese (around inclusion / seclusion) when the Chinese were exposed to the few lodges in HK. They outlawed the tongs / triads back then, so like the book "who moved my cheese", sniff and scurry had to adapt.

#2 - Western Freemasonry MAY have been influenced by middle eastern traditions (Sufism / Egyptian Mysticism, etc.) - NOTHING to do with China. China has its own esoteric traditions far older and richer than Western Freemasonry. And there is NO evidence to prove that the two traditions collided, so far as I'm aware - except in the most elementary sense.

#3 - Canadian Provincial Lodges do not accept or recognize the term "Chinese Freemasons". And Canada is part of the Commonwealth / British tradition that gave the movement its roots, and governs the Craft. Having said that, I again would question / wonder, why any Chinese "secret" society would even want to be a part / attach their names to this Christian / Western Pagan tradition? They have a much richer history philosophicaly than we do!

I guess I did get into this tonight...and pardon the spelling - this site needs a spell-checker. I know I'm gonna rue posting this tomorrow!

Cheers - AQ

[Xiao3 Meng4]

From a 1920 print of

Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry prepared for the Supreme Council of the Thirty-Third Degree, for the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States, and Published by its Authority. (1871, Grand Commander Albert Pike)

III.
The Master

To understand literally the symbols and allegories of Oriental books as to ante-historical matters, is to willfully close our eyes against the light. To translate the symbols into the trivial and commonplace, is the blundering of mediocrity.
All religious expression is symbolism; since we can describe only what we see, and the true objects of religion are THE SEEN....

IX.
Elect of the Nine

... It is not the mission of Masonry to engage in plots and conspiracies against the civil government. It is not the fanatical propagandist of any creed or theory; nor does it proclaim itself the enemy of kings. It is the apostle of liberty, equality, and fraternity; but it is not more the high-priest of republicanism than of constitutional monarchy. It contracts no entangling alliances with any sect of theorists, dreamers or philosophers...

X.
Illustrious Elect of the Fifteen

...Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it...

XX.
Grand Master of All Symbolic Lodges

Forget not that, more than three thousand years ago, Zoroaster said: "Be good, be kind, be humane, and charitable; love your fellows; console the afflicted; pardon those who have done you wrong." Nor more than two thousand three hundred years ago Confucius repeated, also quoting the language of those who had lived before himself: "Love thy neighbour as thyself; Do not do to others what thou wouldst not wish to be done to thyself: Forgive injuries. Forgive your enemy, be reconciled to him, give him assistance, invoke God on his behalf!"
Let not the morality of your Lodge be inferior to that of the Persian or the Chinese philosopher...

XXIV.
Prince of the Tabernacle

... Hence sprung the doctrine of the transmigration of souls; which Pythagoras taught as an allegory, and those who came after him received literally. Plato, like him, drew his doctrines from the East and the Mysteries... Plato says, that souls will not reach the term of their ills, until the revolutions of the world have restored them to their primitive condition, and purify them from the stains which they have contracted... The Curds, the Chinese, the Kabbalists, all held the same doctrine... The Mysteries among the Chinese and Japanese came from India, and were founded on the same principles and with familiar rites... The main features of the Druidical Mysteries resembled those of the Orient.

XXV.
Knight of the Brazen Serpent

Abulfaragius says that the seven great primitive nations, from whom all others descended, the Persians, Chaldaeans, Greeks, Egyptians, Turks, Indians, and Chinese, all originally were Sabaeists, and worshipped the Stars... And the Chinese built Temples to Heaven, the Earth, and genii of the air, of the water, of the mountains, and of the stars, to the sea dragon, and to the planet Mars... The Couciet [Kou Xie? Ku Hsieh?], a Chinese book, speaks of a palace composed of four buildings, whose gates looked toward the four corners of the world. That on the East was dedicated to the new moons of the months of Spring; that on the West to those of Autumn; that on the South to those of Summer; and that on the North to those of Winter: and in this palace the Emperor and his grandees sacrificed a lamb, the animal that represented the sun at the Vernal equinox... The number five was sacred among the Chinese, as that of the planets other than the Sun and Moon. Astrology consecrated the numbers twelve, seven, thirty, and thee hundred and sixty; and everywhere SEVEN, the number of the planets, was as sacred as TWELVE, that of the signs, the months, the oriental cycles, and the sections of the horizon... In China, astrology taught the mode of governing the State and families...

XXXII.
Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret

The Occult Science of the Ancient Magi was concealed under the shadows of the Ancient Mysteries: it was imperfectly revealed or rather disfigured by the Gnostics: it is guessed at under the obscurities that cover the pretended crimes of the Templars; and it is found enveloped in enigmas that seem impenetrable, in the Rites of the Highest Masonry.
Magism was the Science of Abraham and Orpheus, of Confucius and Zoroaster... Every degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, from the first to the thirty-second, teaches by its ceremonial as well as by its instruction, that the noblest purpose of life and the highest duty of man are to strive incessantly and vigorously to win the mastery of everything, of that which in him is spiritual and divine, over that which is material and sensual; so that in him also, as in the Universe which God governs, Harmony and Beauty may be the result of a just equilibrium... From the mutual action and reaction of each of these pairs of opposites and contraries results that which with them forms the Triangle, to all the Ancient Sages the expressive symbol of the Deity... It is the right angled Triangle, representing man, as a union of the spiritual and material, of the divine and human. The base... represents the Deity and the Divine; the perpendicular... represents the Earth, the Material, and the Human; and the hypotenuse... represents that nature which is produced by the union of the Divine and Human, the Soul and the Body... And as in each Triangle of Perfection, one is three and three are one, so man is one, though of a double nature; and he attains the purposes of his being only when the two natures that are in him are in just equilibrium; and his life is a success only when it too is in harmony, and beautiful, like the great Harmonies of God and the Universe. Such, my Brother, is the TRUE word of a Master Mason; such the true ROYAL SECRET, which makes possible, and shall at length make real, the HOLY EMPIRE of true Masonic Brotherhood. GLORIA DEI EST CELARE VERBUM. AMEN.

Amazing what you can find at the thrift store, LOL!

Sounds like the more community minded Chinese tongs and the Freemasons would at least enjoy a round of golf together.

P.S. How interesting - this is the 33rd reply.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

You're welcome.

[Phil Redmond]

very interesting what i was just tol by a well known and controversial Mason....

It's been recorded somewhere that Western Freemason HAD INDEED borrowed from the eastern Secret Societies. Many things, including the use of costumes and some cermonies are borrowed from the Chinese.

in his words: "there was alot of influencing eachother inthe 18th century in the place we define as the Head of all Dragons and thats Hong Kong. In a British masonic paper of a Secret society in Britain in that persiod they used chinese structure and traditions and even clothes"

I was taught than many Masonic Traditions are based on King Solomon's Temple.

[David Jamieson]

I was taught than many Masonic Traditions are based on King Solomon's Temple.

Have you read any Christopher Knight or Robert Lomas?

[TenTigers]

is that only your lodge, or are all Chinese Freemason lodges accepted by the Grand Lodge and recognized as Free and Accepted Masons?
There doesn't seem to be one on the NYC Grand Lodge's list of locations.

[Phil Redmond]

Have you read any Christopher Knight or Robert Lomas?

No, I haven't but I'll look into them, Thx

[TenTigers]

Ok, in the 1830's, the First Hung Mun lodge was founded in America. That today is called the Hung Mun Ghee Kung Tong. It's the mother of all other Hung Mun's. you can say its the Grand Lodge or as we term it....the world supreme lodge.

According to research, the Chinese have fought long and hard on their entitlement of using the square and compass. Still, the Hung Mun isn't trying to ride the FREEMASON bandwagon in the least. The Hung Mun has their own secret signals, secrets, history, purpose,fraternity, and ceremonies. and, the Heaven, Earth and Man Society has been in existance as long as western freemasonry has.

now, the other Hung Mun's also use the Square and Compass. So, to answer your question, as far as i know, California is a major hub for the Free and Accepted Masons. I'm not too sure about the other lodges. But, ours is a Grand Lodge. And they give out ONE Hiram Award a year for dedicated Masonic Service. it's this Fraternity that has recognized the Hung Society as true Free Masons......:
http://www.freemason.org/

That's great. I heard that NYC has two Chinese Freemasons-one being Hung Mun, the other being a F&AM Lodge. But, of all the Hung Mun guys I've met, all were also Masons and treated me as a brother. Perhaps Phil could shed some light on this?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Ok, in the 1830's, the First Hung Mun lodge was founded in America. That today is called the Hung Mun Ghee Kung Tong. It's the mother of all other Hung Mun's. you can say its the Grand Lodge or as we term it....the world supreme lodge.

Do you know when the Ghee Kung Tong was accepted into the Masonic order? I'm asking because I'd be interested to know whether or not it was before or after Albert Pike wrote his book. If it was before, there's a chance that the Chinese related information within it came from the Ghee Kung Tong.

Phil:

I'm no Mason, so what I'm about to say is an educated guess only. Skimming the book, it seems laid out degree by degree, with curriculum outlines in each chapter, indicating what Masons of that particular degree should learn, understand and do. The book starts with basic maths, symbols, ideals and protocols, then moves on to Christian and Jewish allegory (King Solomon, etc,) then Greek and Roman, then Egyptian, then Persian/Indian, and finally Zorastrian/Chinese, with lots of other smaller cultures being mentioned in the process. Paganism is also threaded throughout.

Back in the middle ages, that was the big Masonic "secret" - they weren't Christian. Apparently, the knights of the Crusades were conflicted, unable to reconcile their faith with all the death, violence and horror commited by both sides. Good people died while evil people lived. While fighting in the middle East, they came across the Zoroastrians, whose philosophies were dualistic and humanistic as opposed to monotheistic. The Zoroastrian philosophy allowed the Knights to better come to terms with the wars. When they returned to Europe, they brought their newfound doctrines with them. They were still Christian in name and root faith, though, so they feared excommunication just like anyone else at that time. As a result, they could not reveal their non-Christian perspectives in public. So they kept them up in Private, and when they allied with the Masons, they spread their new philosophy, which eventually developed into the Freemasons we know today. But yeah, that's supposedly the true big "secret" - they were heretics of their time.

[David Jamieson]

For a touch of levity, I submit this assortnment of hand signs with descriptions.

;D

http://www.cracked.com/article_14956...ocal-gang.html

[Shaolin Dude]

has anyone read the dragon syndicates book by martin booth? there's a few pictures in that book with triad hand signs. I'm not sure which triads they belong to though

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I always thought hand signals were supposed to be really obscure and unnoticeable unless you looked for it... like the way you're holding something, or passing something?