Kuro Obi/Black Belt

[Hardwork108]

Has anyone seen the full version of the Japanese Karate Movie, Kuro Obi. I have just seen bits and pieces on You Tube and it looked very good.

This is the first part, but the rest of the clips are just bits and peaces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h03ADrkYfA

If you have seen it, then how would you rate it out of 10?

HW108

[Dragonzbane76]

Kuro Obi/Black Belt

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Has anyone seen the full version of the Japanese Karate Movie, Kuro Obi. I have just seen bits and pieces on You Tube and it looked very good.

This is the first part, but the rest of the clips are just bits and peaces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h03ADrkYfA

If you have seen it, then how would you rate it out of 10?

HW108

Is it about an internal master that is coming out of the 'closet' in the modern period? nope never seen it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its actually a pretty good movie with a very good ending.
The fighting is a tad, well, traditional, but the whole message of the movie is done quite well.

[Kevin73]

Very good movie. I would rate it a 9/10 overall. Like it was said, the fight scenes are pretty good, but pretty standard for a martial arts flick. I would definately watch it (got a copy on Netflix to watch).

[Hardwork108]

Thank you all for your replies (clueless Dragonzbane76, too ).

Kevin73, is your copy of the movie dubbed or subtitled?

Sanjuro, you commented that the fight scenes were a "tad traditional". That is one of the things that grabbed my attention from the clips and actually attracted me to this movie.

I know that you have considerable experience in karate, so I will ask you wether you think that traditionally applied karate techniques, let's say, in a Shotokan manner (in which style I believe that you also have some experience), can be applied in real combat or not?

I personally believe that it can if trained with the vigor that it used to be trained in the JKA training programs. I have read that the late and great Sensei Enoeda knocked out a boxer with whom he had street (challenge) fight with at university in Japan, in his younger days.

HW108

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro, you commented that the fight scenes were a "tad traditional". That is one of the things that grabbed my attention from the clips and actually attracted me to this movie.

Me too, but it is not everyone's "cup of tea".

I know that you have considerable experience in karate, so I will ask you wether you think that traditionally applied karate techniques, let's say, in a Shotokan manner (in which style I believe that you also have some experience), can be applied in real combat or not?

Very much so.
Not in the confines of the ring, the rule set demands for too much change as in the case of Lyoto, the core is there but the "flavour" is not.
Traditional Karate moves are an excellent base and core to develop fighting skills from. However, it needs to have a certain adaptability that not all practioners are able to have, at times some become to rigid and forget the "softness" that is inherent in Karate-do.

I personally believe that it can if trained with the vigor that it used to be trained in the JKA training programs. I have read that the late and great Sensei Enoeda knocked out a boxer with whom he had street (challenge) fight with at university in Japan, in his younger days.

I don't put too much stock on anecdotes, but that one actually happened, the young man was a boxer in a local japanese boxing gym, he had never seen karate so...
Enoeda was one of those that understood the softness of karate and was also a very good judoka.

[Kevin73]

The copy I got from Netflix was subtitled.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The copy I got from Netflix was subtitled.

Mine is also, best way to go in my opinion.

[Hardwork108]

Me too, but it is not everyone's "cup of tea".

Don't worry, I won't be sending a copy of this film to Dave Ross.

Very much so.
Not in the confines of the ring, the rule set demands for too much change as in the case of Lyoto, the core is there but the "flavour" is not.
Traditional Karate moves are an excellent base and core to develop fighting skills from. However, it needs to have a certain adaptability that not all practioners are able to have, at times some become to rigid and forget the "softness" that is inherent in Karate-do.

I agree that karate has softness elements and even though -Internally speaking - they don't go as deep as the TCMAs, they can still complete this art in ways that will make it superior to just practicing it externally. Of course, there are many styles of karate that emphasis softness to different degrees.

I don't put too much stock on anecdotes, but that one actually happened, the young man was a boxer in a local japanese boxing gym, he had never seen karate so...

I personally believe that it would not have mattered if he had "seen" karate. Enoeda was an exceptional martial artist.

Enoeda was one of those that understood the softness of karate and was also a very good judoka.

I believe that he knocked out the boxer with a reverse punch to the face. Apparently the boxer gave him a bloody lip before Enoeda put him out.

I hope that you are sitting as I am going to say that I believe that Judo training is a good compliment to karate. It will enhance the grappling/throwing techniques that are already within karate. However, I believe that one should gain potent skills in one before going to train the other.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree that karate has softness elements and even though -Internally speaking - they don't go as deep as the TCMAs, they can still complete this art in ways that will make it superior to just practicing it externally. Of course, there are many styles of karate that emphasis softness to different degrees.

Many people get stuck in what they do best and don't try doing anything different and for most karateka, "softness" is too different.
Wado-ryu is one of the karate systems that understands softness, there are others.

I personally believe that it would not have mattered if he had "seen" karate. Enoeda was an exceptional martial artist.


I believe that he knocked out the boxer with a reverse punch to the face. Apparently the boxer gave him a bloody lip before Enoeda put him out.

The challenge was because the young boxer had never seen karate and I recall that the shot the boxer got in was a jab, something that Enoeda has not "seen" either.

I hope that you are sitting as I am going to say that I believe that Judo training is a good compliment to karate. It will enhance the grappling/throwing techniques that are already within karate. However, I believe that one should gain potent skills in one before going to train the other.

Judo and karate were orginally meant to be taught together.
Blame the egos of the JKA and the Kodokan for the "split".

[Hardwork108]

Many people get stuck in what they do best and don't try doing anything different and for most karateka, "softness" is too different.
Wado-ryu is one of the karate systems that understands softness, there are others.

There is also Shorin Ryu and as you are aware Goju ryu ("hard/soft"). Going back to Shotokan, it seems that Shigeru Egami's Shotokai is worlds away from the JKA in the amount of softness [(internals) and flow they incorporate into their training.

Shotokan itself seems to have evolved towards softness with masters such as Kanazawa (who is a tai chi exponent of many years); the late Asai (who had years of experience in Chinese kung fu), and the late sensei Kase who also taught softness and subtility.

So I guess these masters had realized the advantages of balancing their hardness with softness.

However, generally speaking, what may be regarded as softness in karate is still looked upon as very hard, by kung fu internalists. Of course, it is good to see that traditional karate is evolving in the right direction.

The challenge was because the young boxer had never seen karate and I recall that the shot the boxer got in was a jab, something that Enoeda has not "seen" either.

That is strange, because Shotokan has jap like techniques.

IMHO, whatever the differences between the two arts, Shotokan has the arsenal to defeat boxing. IT is a more complete art. Of course, we must remember where Enoeda got his training, as well.

Judo and karate were orginally meant to be taught together.
Blame the egos of the JKA and the Kodokan for the "split".

I will.

HW108
PS. I studied under Enoeda when I was around 17 when living in the UK. Unfortunately, I did not stick to it for more than a few months as I changed to a "Chinese Boxing" school that was closer to where I lived. That is one of my main regrets in life. Enoeda was bigger than life. All that is said about his charisma and presence and power is true. Decades later in Brazil I met up with a Japanese 7th dan Shotokan master who was Enoeda's JKA classmate in Japan decades ago. He confirmed Enoeda's power and dynamism.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is also Shorin Ryu and as you are aware Goju ryu ("hard/soft"). Going back to Shotokan, it seems that Shigeru Egami's Shotokai is worlds away from the JKA in the amount of softness (internals) and flow they incorporate into their training.

The shotokai's issue with the JKA was that they were going to far from Funakoshi's true vision on Shotokan and focusing too much on sport to the deteriment of correct karate training, perhaps they were right...



Enoeda was something, next time you are in Brasil you should try to get over to the Machida-ryu Dojo, the traditional karate taught there is very similar to that of Enoedas.

Their are certain branches of the JKA that have become more "classical" in their approach, more "hard contact" and less point stuff.

[Lucas]

arent i supposed to have a warning by twilight zone music when you guys are exchanging words via discussion?

[Hardwork108]

arent i supposed to have a warning by twilight zone music when you guys are exchanging words via discussion?

I know what you mean, I felt another presence in the room when typing to Sanjuro.

I am fine discussing things with him as long as he does not make negative and untrue remarks about my sifu or me.

So far he hasn't and good on him.

HW108

[Hardwork108]

The shotokai's issue with the JKA was that they were going to far from Funakoshi's true vision on Shotokan and focusing too much on sport to the deteriment of correct karate training, perhaps they were right...

They also train with very soft and flowy movements. You can have a look at their katas in YouTube.

Interestingly, they do not use Kime, at least in the JKA sense, either....

Any of the Shigeru Egami's writings can reveal the idea behind Shotokai and its evolution. He started with hard training and came to the realization that real power was inside softness. I am generalizing here but if you are interested you can get his book, "The Heart of Karate Do".

You can also read his thoughts here:
http://shotokai.com/ingles/gallery/beyondpreface.html

http://shotokai.com/ingles/gallery/introbeyond1.html

Enoeda was something, next time you are in Brasil you should try to get over to the Machida-ryu Dojo, the traditional karate taught there is very similar to that of Enoedas.

I will have a look if there is one in Rio. However, training karate will take me away from the kung fu methodology that I study. I don't just say this because "someone" told me but because I did it myself and realized the fact.

Before finding my sifu I trained in Shotokan under the master I mentioned before. However, when I found my sifu I started WC training under him and continued with Shotokan. Sifu had no problems with it. Eventually, I realized that karate training was hindering my progress in WC and I discontinued. Sifu said that he had no problem with me training karate at the same time because he knew that I would eventually realize that it was hindering my kung fu progress. The concepts of WC I train are just too different and so are the energies (internal) and the softness and the flow.

However, I always pop into local MA schools to have a look at the classes. It beats staying home and watching TV.

Their are certain branches of the JKA that have become more "classical" in their approach, more "hard contact" and less point stuff.

It seems that Enoeda's spirit lives on in Shotokan circles and that is a good thing.