wu sau position with ur bong sau

[Steeeve]

using 2 hands to fight one isolated & flanked arm is NOT a skill

i used one hands to cover one hand to attack....that skill

[TenTigers]

k gledhill-just out of curiosity, why do you substitute v for w? I can understand why some use it to write ving tsun, but why carry it over to other words that require a w?

[chusauli]

Because he's speaking Cherman - LOL!

[k gledhill]

Roberts got me there ! hah VU sao !

steeeve one hand to cover one to attack is fine posing with kau sao and VU sao is silly.

[Phil Redmond]

k gledhill-just out of curiosity, why do you substitute v for w? I can understand why some use it to write ving tsun, but why carry it over to other words that require a w?

I learned one version of why Wing Chun was changed to Ving Tsun (though no Cantonese speaker will use the V sound). What have other people learned?
What gets me is why people spell Yip Man, Ip Man? It's clearly pronounced Yip in Cantonese.

[bennyvt]

when wsl was beating everyone the only come back they had was to call it water closet fist, wck, in other words toilet fist. Bong is the only pure block in vt. Charging with the bong is used to divert someones pulling force. Not just to block the punch,The only punches you can do that to are vt punches in chi sao. Try that on a boxers punch the punch will either fly past without time to do that or more likely you get hit. Do the lap sao defence to a person not punching down the middle and you will find the bong doesnt even in near the punch.

[KenWingJitsu]

when wsl was beating everyone the only come back they had was to call it water closet fist, wck, in other words toilet fist. Bong is the only pure block in vt. Charging with the bong is used to divert someones pulling force. Not just to block the punch,The only punches you can do that to are vt punches in chi sao. Try that on a boxers punch the punch will either fly past without time to do that or more likely you get hit. Do the lap sao defence to a person not punching down the middle and you will find the bong doesnt even in near the punch.

Nonsense.

If someone taught you that the bong-sau is a "block"... get a refund.
The bong should be a collapsing punch.
Punch first, yield if his arm meets your punch......

[k gledhill]

bong is used if your strike-line aka centerline 'path' is occupied from above...making the arm unable to deliver a strike itself ...so we displace with a 'ging'/shocking short energy lateral bong , left or right , xing our centerline/strikeline clearing a way for the rear VU sao
aka WU sao ....this lateral energy of the bong is what allows us to shift energy that touches it past us with just the bong sao alone....iow no lop needed to grab as a set piece.
this further allows the bong to be done in 'blinking' speeds as the rear hand fires in using its 'dual' energy strikes to displace laterally as well, while it strikes forwards...allowing an attacking hand straight away in a 1/2 beat of the bong ....anything else is too slow.
LOP aka grabbing hand , is only used if the bong fails to shift the arm alone....so grab it and turn the guy on his axis line [head/spine] gaining flank and keep attacking....

Many use bong as a hard jam or 'block' due to the loss of the lateral energy and displacing effect it has, similar to the poles ability to 'slap' another pole off its intended path but still hold its contact point... iow opening up a striking path with a sharp slapping, quick stop, deflection....

Bong is developed on the dummy lower arm like this to strike it with fast rotation speeds from short starting points ...but if it misses the intended arm, it wont fly past offering your elbow for trapping....we also do this energy doing low bongs traveling inwards in chum kil...we would use a normal height bong as the others , but the drill allows the sharp inward energy of the bongs to be applied with forward advancing attacking steps....so if your attacking with either lead leg, and the guy gets his arm over yours, you can shift it sideways as he applies force or not and 'turn ' him, using bongs energy alone, so you have the rear vu, free to do what it has to...moving forwards attacking with bong/vwu..

remember we only turn to face our line of attack, relative to the guys moves...NOT to rotate away from them offering turned elbows etc...

the VWU sao is placed in the chambered position of the bicep/raised elbow, so that it will intersect anything in its path as it strikes forwards FIRST...iow you strike first from VWU sao at the head of the guy not chase his arm by memorized response of redundant chi-sao bong lop drills....which would be like training to be slow on purpose, rather than using lop as a last resort...it is in bil gee ...lop sao...

Jut sao is the primary response to an intercepted fist, due to it staying on the strike/centerline even if it misses.....so bong > vu strikes> intercepted ? use jut>and bongs elbow would have dropped as chi-sao teaches to regaing the elbow in position to strike immediately for the intercepted jut....

all in a millisecond

I used a lop in a street/bar fight and missed the guys arm in the chaos opening me up and making me turn myself from the miss....I was lucky enough to stay balanced and hit the guy with the same arm as I re-turned to face him and land a turning facing punch to his nose = ko....point being ? lop only if your bong didnt work to displace and open the strike line on its own....


VU sao is a way to keep a perpetual free attacking hand in reserves as the 'front line' advances on the target...no matter what the guy does to your lead hand [man] the rear keeps re-chambering [ tut sao/shaving hand = vu recovery to the rear after striking out]...so you can keep firing at the guy using ATTACKING hands not 2-3 sequential actions..

becasue the bong moves force 'sideways'/ latrerally now you can move forwards attacking without turning to use bong ....iow you can take force and move it past your ears as you strike in advancing forwards and NOT JAM the guy pushing him out of your striking range, or meeting force with a force of bong rigidly trying to block another force...it takes little energy to move a great force sideways "the harder they come " as they say holds true for the bong sao....

vu-sao is 'married' to bong for this reason...how to recover a bridged arm without thinking ....bong makes way for the intercepting fist of VT. AKA VWU sao

some try to avoid the bong xing over the other arm in chi-sao for 'fear' of being trapped in the 'game' of chi-sao...in real fighting we never use the same drilling positions, we use lead[man] rear [vwu] allowing a constant attacking action 'idea' to evolve from the SLT...

in chi-sao the bongs finger tips should be almost touching the partners tshirt sleave aiming at thir bicep with the bongs finger tips, xing the line...if the partner is using fowards wristing force you will automatically see that their energy is attached to your bongs lateral movement and they will aim past your ears....they should be aligning their elbows and wrists at you, NOT trying to place energy on your arms with their wrists...in fighting you will always have a rear hand not a drill position with your arms xing each other as chi-sao...

in fighting we wouldnt approach the guy head on with this position so we are training the bong to deflect anything as we angle in on them.....either side...iow your lead 'intended' strike, if xed over by the other guy, would become bong briefly so you could re-establish a bridge by sinking theirs...how to regain the bridge...you dont need to contact their arms before doing bong either, anything in the way of your striking attack intent ...iow their arm is 6inches above your extended lead arm...you cant hit them with the nearest arm, so you recover the line by lateral displacement ..using sharp slapping action of the bongs raised forearm...and instantly strike in with vu, dropping the bong elbow asap....this is what is trained in chi-sao [should be] .

the system is training each action to deflect the attacked arm away from our strike/centerline....every action keeps the guys arm shut down , trying to keep them from re-facing you...bong moves their energy , turning them as they try to contact you...the following actions 'should' further shut down attempts too, the strikes are trained for the duality of deflection/strike individually for this very reason, so you can strike with 2 'free' hands and not fight one arm with 2 always....

2 free striking hands , angling, attacking constantly.... trying to turn the guy or allow him to move and take what he offers , in terms of over swings etc...

once you see the4 drills as simple tools ,you can see the free mind you have to simply fight someone with intuitive actions, systematically trained stikes for delivering the idea...

[TenTigers]

great post-tons of info right there.
where were you during the argument about bong being a weak technique?

[TenTigers]

I learned one version of why Wing Chun was changed to Ving Tsun (though no Cantonese speaker will use the V sound). What have other people learned?
What gets me is why people spell Yip Man, Ip Man? It's clearly pronounced Yip in Cantonese.

I had heard the "water closet" story as well.
From the little Cantonese I've learned, in some cases, the "Y" sound is dropped, as in,"Yut,Ee, Sam.." not sure if it applies here, or in which cases.
Cantonese is the fourth hardest language, along with Farsi, Hebrew, and not sure what the other is. (probably that African language with all the clicks and pops..)Extremely hard for a non-native/Chinese speaker.
My Cantonese speaking friends know when to break the rules, which words are used due to their more poetic, or proper sounds. (when to use gerk, when to use tuie, or kuen over choy, etc. "This way sounds right" -which to me is impossible to get...)
Funny thing, the young waiter at the local restaurant knows I am learning, so he pushes me to speak more. When I go out to eat with my Cantonese-speaking friends, he asks me first for the order! I'm going to have to eat there more often.

[CFT]

If you ask a native Cantonese speaker, i.e. one from HK or Guangdong, to pronounce the letter "V" they will in all likelihood say "Wee". I think that is why the alternative spelling of "Wing" can be "Ving".

[KenWingJitsu]

Many use bong as a hard jam or 'block' due to the loss of the lateral energy and displacing effect it has

Yeah.. um anyone who uses a bong as a block or a jam... doesn't know how to use Wing Chun and has never tried that nonsense in a real fight or in real sparring.

Try "bonging" (lol) a hook... or a round kick and tell me how your delt feels.

[Steeeve]

k gledhill

U Rock .....good post.... thank

[Steeeve]

whats about this short lateral ginenergy when we perform chi sao.....
.... Does we could say bong sao have a kind of spiral energy forward and lateral depending on the application could be used like a jam ,a deflection or a block (emergency situation)

[Vajramusti]

What gets me is why people spell Yip Man, Ip Man? It's clearly pronounced Yip in Cantonese.[/QUOTE]Phil R
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Ip Man's passport showed Ip as the spelling. Ip Chun and Ip Ching both use Ip not Yip.

joy chaudhuri