Shaolin vs. Muay Thai

[goju]

their is nothing like areguing a stupid point is there

Goju Good god can’t you just admit you got owned by pork chop…..you argued for pages he had no idea about how sanda guys actually train in china, and then he produced video proof of how they trained and how his coaches both from the east and pro fighters trained, just admit you are wrong

lol my god are you guys even capapble of following a simple convo?

let me spell it out in large words so you can understand


I "DID NOT" SAY THEY WERENT SAN SHOU FIGHTERS


I "DID NOT" SAY THEY DIDNT USE SAN SHOU FOR THE FIGHT OR TRAINED IN SAN SHOU


i said pork chop didnt know the extent of everything those guys have learned


how either one of you get this mixed up is beyond me lol



good lord both you guys are so eager to u pull your e ***** out and wave it around your not even following whats going on here

[shaolinchuan]

Would like to chime in here since I think that there's a misunderstanding of the correlation between Chinese traditional kung fu and san da. One is the fundamentals to make your skills well-rounded and the ability to defend yourself effectively; the latter is to adapt these fundamentals to fighting against modern day competition.

The reality in China is that many schools which teach san da also teach traditional forms as fundamentals. These fundamentals are essential to making san da an effective fighting approach. In fact, the Chinese fighter that KO'd the Thai boxer is from Tagou school next to Shaolin, and was trained in both traditional forms and san da. The founder of the school was a master of Shaolin kung fu famous for Qixing chuan and Changhuxinyimen, with a family lineage that goes back to the Shaolin Temple. Have trained there myself and have seen their training regiment and my current teacher grew up there.

The analogy I would like to give is similar to college and career. Most of us don't apply our college education directly into the workplace. The point of the curriculum is to sharpen your mind, strengthen analytical and interpersonal skills, expand your horizons, etc. There are always bits and pieces of what you learned in math or science for example, that can get applied to your career. With each promotion or change of career path, you use different things you've learned previously.

Having trained for many years with various teachers in the US including "traditionalists" and Shi Guo Lin, as well as having studied San Da and Shaolin kung fu in Beijing, I can say without a doubt that there's a strong correlation between traditional kung fu and san da.

How you apply your techniques is up to your interpretation in today's reality. To be so literal in using the exact techniques from your forms, you're really not thinking the same way as the original masters that created the form. No one fights in a straight line using their forms right? By having a good teacher, you build speed, power, agility, accuracy, through the broad understanding and applications from your forms. The dynamic power from punching and kicking in traditional Chinese kung fu is very different than karate or other arts. Mastering it can be done much more easily through practicing the forms (with the right teacher).

As another example, there are couple of grappling techniques in Tong Bei Chuan which has a number of interpretations. Key is interpreting how to use it in the specific fighting circumstances that you are faced with. The creater of forms would never have been able to dream up techniques that can be applied literally against every fighter or fighting system. All up to the teacher and the current circumstances.

Kung fu has evolved through many thousands of years and while forms don't necessarily need to keep changing, the way it is applied in fighting has to. It's just common sense. Fighters today posess different skillsets than they did hundreds or thousands of years ago.

Sanda fighters are very successful because they have traditional kung fu foundations and have adapted effective fighting approaches to go up against other formidable martial arts. Nothing wrong with this. Have yet to see a person use traditional fighting techniques in literal form to defeat the best trained fighters in the world. Anyone whom thinks that this just applies to Chinese traditional martial arts is naive. No different than karate, tae kwon do, etc.

[Hardwork108]

Would like to chime in here since I think that there's a misunderstanding of the correlation between Chinese traditional kung fu and san da. One is the fundamentals to make your skills well-rounded and the ability to defend yourself effectively; the latter is to adapt these fundamentals to fighting against modern day competition.

The reality in China is that many schools which teach san da also teach traditional forms as fundamentals. These fundamentals are essential to making san da an effective fighting approach. In fact, the Chinese fighter that KO'd the Thai boxer is from Tagou school next to Shaolin, and was trained in both traditional forms and san da. The founder of the school was a master of Shaolin kung fu famous for Qixing chuan and Changhuxinyimen, with a family lineage that goes back to the Shaolin Temple. Have trained there myself and have seen their training regiment and my current teacher grew up there.

The analogy I would like to give is similar to college and career. Most of us don't apply our college education directly into the workplace. The point of the curriculum is to sharpen your mind, strengthen analytical and interpersonal skills, expand your horizons, etc. There are always bits and pieces of what you learned in math or science for example, that can get applied to your career. With each promotion or change of career path, you use different things you've learned previously.

Having trained for many years with various teachers in the US including "traditionalists" and Shi Guo Lin, as well as having studied San Da and Shaolin kung fu in Beijing, I can say without a doubt that there's a strong correlation between traditional kung fu and san da.

How you apply your techniques is up to your interpretation in today's reality. To be so literal in using the exact techniques from your forms, you're really not thinking the same way as the original masters that created the form. No one fights in a straight line using their forms right? By having a good teacher, you build speed, power, agility, accuracy, through the broad understanding and applications from your forms. The dynamic power from punching and kicking in traditional Chinese kung fu is very different than karate or other arts. Mastering it can be done much more easily through practicing the forms (with the right teacher).

As another example, there are couple of grappling techniques in Tong Bei Chuan which has a number of interpretations. Key is interpreting how to use it in the specific fighting circumstances that you are faced with. The creater of forms would never have been able to dream up techniques that can be applied literally against every fighter or fighting system. All up to the teacher and the current circumstances.

Kung fu has evolved through many thousands of years and while forms don't necessarily need to keep changing, the way it is applied in fighting has to. It's just common sense. Fighters today posess different skillsets than they did hundreds or thousands of years ago.

Sanda fighters are very successful because they have traditional kung fu foundations and have adapted effective fighting approaches to go up against other formidable martial arts. Nothing wrong with this. Have yet to see a person use traditional fighting techniques in literal form to defeat the best trained fighters in the world. Anyone whom thinks that this just applies to Chinese traditional martial arts is naive. No different than karate, tae kwon do, etc.

Great post and thank you.

It is good to have people like you posting. Too many people here have bought into "the lets get rid of forms; lets get rid of the internals and lets just spar and lift weights and we will be more effective and "functional" than traditional kung fu".

There are people here who actually advertise the above methodology while selling what amounts to their Glorified Kickboxing schools. On top of that, they still dare to call what they teach kung fu or even "improved" or more "functional" kung fu.

Thanks again and more posts please.

HW108

[B.Tunks]

EDIT: The fight after that one is Kaoklai in black shorts. WOW! Bad decision! These matches don't really have much credibility after that... Kaoklai d@mn near pitched a shut out, out-threw the Chinese fighter and lost? What a joke of an event. Guess it's gotta be embarrassing to get totally destroyed in the one thing you're known for being good at (throws).


"oh, the chinese fighter is tired? have the ref call a 20second break",
"oh, the chinese fighter is injured? have the ref stand in front of the thia",
"oh, the thai fighter is being pushed through the ropes? let's let the chinese fighter throw a few more shots for good measure"
"oh, the round is over? let's let the chinese fighter keep swinging"
"oh, the chinese fighter didn't do anything but miss flicky shots & get his azz beat? let's give him the decision anyway"

what a joke

Having fought in PRC I agree with your observations on how the Chinese fighters are assisted/given advantage during matches. Also that you pretty much have to almost kill them to be declared winner (and even sometimes then a K.O'd fighter will be given the decision).

Re your asessment of the Bian Maofu vs Kaoklai fight: I thought Kaoklai was lazy as hell and I would have scored BMF clearly in front for the first 3 rounds. I thought BMF out struck him the entire fight actually. BMF is not generally known for his throwing either. Unfortunately for Kaoklai, particularly after his last 2 rounds, throws are scored lower in these combined rules matches than in sanda (at the instigation of the Thais). Still, it's China so he should have gone the K.O to be sure. BMF has a chin though...

BT

[Dragonzbane76]

Great post and thank you.

It is good to have people like you posting. Too many people here have bought into "the lets get rid of forms; lets get rid of the internals and lets just spar and lift weights and we will be more effective and "functional" than traditional kung fu".

There are people here who actually advertise the above methodology while selling what amounts to their Glorified Kickboxing schools. On top of that, they still dare to call what they teach kung fu or even "improved" or more "functional" kung fu.

Thanks again and more posts please.

yes it was a good conversation until you chimed in.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Would like to chime in here since I think that there's a misunderstanding of the correlation between Chinese traditional kung fu and san da. One is the fundamentals to make your skills well-rounded and the ability to defend yourself effectively; the latter is to adapt these fundamentals to fighting against modern day competition.

The reality in China is that many schools which teach san da also teach traditional forms as fundamentals. These fundamentals are essential to making san da an effective fighting approach. In fact, the Chinese fighter that KO'd the Thai boxer is from Tagou school next to Shaolin, and was trained in both traditional forms and san da. The founder of the school was a master of Shaolin kung fu famous for Qixing chuan and Changhuxinyimen, with a family lineage that goes back to the Shaolin Temple. Have trained there myself and have seen their training regiment and my current teacher grew up there.

The analogy I would like to give is similar to college and career. Most of us don't apply our college education directly into the workplace. The point of the curriculum is to sharpen your mind, strengthen analytical and interpersonal skills, expand your horizons, etc. There are always bits and pieces of what you learned in math or science for example, that can get applied to your career. With each promotion or change of career path, you use different things you've learned previously.

Having trained for many years with various teachers in the US including "traditionalists" and Shi Guo Lin, as well as having studied San Da and Shaolin kung fu in Beijing, I can say without a doubt that there's a strong correlation between traditional kung fu and san da.

How you apply your techniques is up to your interpretation in today's reality. To be so literal in using the exact techniques from your forms, you're really not thinking the same way as the original masters that created the form. No one fights in a straight line using their forms right? By having a good teacher, you build speed, power, agility, accuracy, through the broad understanding and applications from your forms. The dynamic power from punching and kicking in traditional Chinese kung fu is very different than karate or other arts. Mastering it can be done much more easily through practicing the forms (with the right teacher).

As another example, there are couple of grappling techniques in Tong Bei Chuan which has a number of interpretations. Key is interpreting how to use it in the specific fighting circumstances that you are faced with. The creater of forms would never have been able to dream up techniques that can be applied literally against every fighter or fighting system. All up to the teacher and the current circumstances.

Kung fu has evolved through many thousands of years and while forms don't necessarily need to keep changing, the way it is applied in fighting has to. It's just common sense. Fighters today posess different skillsets than they did hundreds or thousands of years ago.

Sanda fighters are very successful because they have traditional kung fu foundations and have adapted effective fighting approaches to go up against other formidable martial arts. Nothing wrong with this. Have yet to see a person use traditional fighting techniques in literal form to defeat the best trained fighters in the world. Anyone whom thinks that this just applies to Chinese traditional martial arts is naive. No different than karate, tae kwon do, etc.

You do know how san shou/san da was developed right?
You do know what MA they choose for their core hand techniques?

It is very true that certain unique flavours can on be developed via forms training and I don't know of ANYONE that advocates NOT doing forms in MA that have them.
Regardless of what some dilusional people may believe, forms DO have their place in the MA, the same place they have always had, the development of attributes and NOT the development of fighting skills.
Some people confuse the two.
Are you familiar with Brian Kennedy's book about CMA training manuals?

A strong core in a TMA is, in my view, essential for developing a fighter.

[Pork Chop]

good lord both you guys are so eager to u pull your e ***** out and wave it around your not even following whats going on here

oh it's not just online
i'll take any excuse to whip my c*ck out.

[Pork Chop]

Re your asessment of the Bian Maofu vs Kaoklai fight: I thought Kaoklai was lazy as hell and I would have scored BMF clearly in front for the first 3 rounds. I thought BMF out struck him the entire fight actually. BMF is not generally known for his throwing either. Unfortunately for Kaoklai, particularly after his last 2 rounds, throws are scored lower in these combined rules matches than in sanda (at the instigation of the Thais). Still, it's China so he should have gone the K.O to be sure. BMF has a chin though...

There was something i was reading on the K1 forums about this fight
they said that the unified rules stated that any throws where both fighters touched the mat would not be counted as a score for either fighter.
To the best of my knowledge, this is different than standard sanshou/sanda rules, where those types of throws score a single point (and clean throws score 3).

As far as BMF's striking, in Thai rules, none of those flicky lower-leg shots would've scored much unless they were noticeably doing damage, especially the ones landing on the bony knee joint instead of the thigh.

Next time I think the Thais need to pull out the big guns and send Buakaw, Saenchai Sor Kingstar, and Yodsaenklai Fairtex .... or at least send a clinch master like madsua

[B.Tunks]

There was something i was reading on the K1 forums about this fight
they said that the unified rules stated that any throws where both fighters touched the mat would not be counted as a score for either fighter.
To the best of my knowledge, this is different than standard sanshou/sanda rules, where those types of throws score a single point (and clean throws score 3).

As far as BMF's striking, in Thai rules, none of those flicky lower-leg shots would've scored much unless they were noticeably doing damage, especially the ones landing on the bony knee joint instead of the thigh.

Next time I think the Thais need to pull out the big guns and send Buakaw, Saenchai Sor Kingstar, and Yodsaenklai Fairtex .... or at least send a clinch master like madsua

Yes, Yod is unstoppable, basically anywhere.

Have to say though Bian out-boxed Kaoklai, regardless of flicky kicks. What I was kind of getting at though was that although the Thai outdid the Chinese fighter in the favoured sanda skillset, the Chinese fighter outdid the Thai in the favoured Thai skillset (in this case). BMF fought a very 'Thai' fight (in comparison to the generic sanda style) whereas Kaoklai seemed a little uncomfortable and seemed to be struggling to adapt his style to the rules or maybe what he felt was an unorthodox opponent. Even though he generally has a very relaxed guard, it was almost non-existant in this fight and he used heaps of push kicks, pretty strange for a muay thai fighter in my opinion. I think it's interesting to see everyone adapting to some extent.

Yeah, throw scores have been heavily regulated in these matches as the Thai's were sick of losing on points after doing more phsyical damage in past years. But that's bound to happen when you fuse a point scoring sport with a true bloodsport.

T

[Pork Chop]

yeah, style wise, Kaoklai is a absolute(exhibit a) mess(exhibit b).

he's always had cr@p boxing and always had that pushkick that's almost a sanshou sidekick. To quote one of those links "he's the sloppiest of the high level Thais". Got absolutely destroyed by Spong and Carnage Corbett.

To his defense, I will say a good push kick is not exactly atypical of Thais, really good ones have it.

re-watched that fight and I think I agree with you.
The clip i posted wasn't the one i watched the first time, which was only the last 3 rounds of the fight (so I'd assumed it was the whole fight).

That first round looked absolutely terrible for kaoklai.
He got out-Thai'd in the first minute. hehe
Funny thing is that palm-in-the-face style of the Sanda fighter exists in muay thai and is considered kind of "old fashioned" or "defensive style", it's how one of my coaches teaches.
Kaoklai was landing a bit with the straight right & the knee but was getting owned the rest of the time.

Secound round was sloppy in spurts but absolutely nothing from Kaoklai.

Third round KK scored a clean throw and looked to me to have edged it out.

Fourth round was a lot closer the first time around, when i started from round 3.
Bian outscored KK like crazy with punches & kicks, while having one clean throw.
Kaoklai had 3 throws, 1 ugly (which I guess didn't count), 1 clean, and 1 borderline (may not have counted).

Fifth round a little more of the same - kaoklai gets out-pointed but scores a bunch of sloppy throws.

A major difference between the 2 scoring systems is how rounds are weighted.
In muay thai, the first round is a throw-away round.
In sanshou/sanda, it's one of the most heavily scored.
As a fight progresses, in muay thai the later rounds are weighted more (imho this is more realistic), whereas in sanshou/sanda the final round seems to be a throw-away round (what I can only assume is a carry-over from amateur style scoring).

The way attacks are scored seems to be different between the two. In muay thai, if you block a kick to the head but fall over & lose your structure, the other guy still gets the point for the attack (reinforcing the "cracking the shell" concept). Pitter-patter leg kicks don't score unless they cause damage or buckling (something that Bian didn't seem to have an issue with till the 3rd round).

Also, ring dominance is a whole foreign beast in muay thai that doesn't even seem to exist in sanshou/sanda. In muay thai the stalking fighter gets credit for being the stalker, a running fighter tends to lose credit - i wouldn't say it's a formal score anything, but it can be that little extra difference. Sanshou/sanda is still very much point based in that only what lands seems to affect scoring. I think ring dominance should not be a deciding factor in a fight; meaning it should only come into play if all # of landed strikes are equal. A guy shouldn't be dinged for running if he's still teeing off on the other fighter. So I can see benefits to chinese scoring here.

[B.Tunks]

yeah, style wise, Kaoklai is a absolute(exhibit a) mess(exhibit b).

he's always had cr@p boxing and always had that pushkick that's almost a sanshou sidekick. To quote one of those links "he's the sloppiest of the high level Thais". Got absolutely destroyed by Spong and Carnage Corbett.

To his defense, I will say a good push kick is not exactly atypical of Thais, really good ones have it.

re-watched that fight and I think I agree with you.
The clip i posted wasn't the one i watched the first time, which was only the last 3 rounds of the fight (so I'd assumed it was the whole fight).

That first round looked absolutely terrible for kaoklai.
He got out-Thai'd in the first minute. hehe
Funny thing is that palm-in-the-face style of the Sanda fighter exists in muay thai and is considered kind of "old fashioned" or "defensive style", it's how one of my coaches teaches.
Kaoklai was landing a bit with the straight right & the knee but was getting owned the rest of the time.

Secound round was sloppy in spurts but absolutely nothing from Kaoklai.

Third round KK scored a clean throw and looked to me to have edged it out.

Fourth round was a lot closer the first time around, when i started from round 3.
Bian outscored KK like crazy with punches & kicks, while having one clean throw.
Kaoklai had 3 throws, 1 ugly (which I guess didn't count), 1 clean, and 1 borderline (may not have counted).

Fifth round a little more of the same - kaoklai gets out-pointed but scores a bunch of sloppy throws.

A major difference between the 2 scoring systems is how rounds are weighted.
In muay thai, the first round is a throw-away round.
In sanshou/sanda, it's one of the most heavily scored.
As a fight progresses, in muay thai the later rounds are weighted more (imho this is more realistic), whereas in sanshou/sanda the final round seems to be a throw-away round (what I can only assume is a carry-over from amateur style scoring).

The way attacks are scored seems to be different between the two. In muay thai, if you block a kick to the head but fall over & lose your structure, the other guy still gets the point for the attack (reinforcing the "cracking the shell" concept). Pitter-patter leg kicks don't score unless they cause damage or buckling (something that Bian didn't seem to have an issue with till the 3rd round).

Also, ring dominance is a whole foreign beast in muay thai that doesn't even seem to exist in sanshou/sanda. In muay thai the stalking fighter gets credit for being the stalker, a running fighter tends to lose credit - i wouldn't say it's a formal score anything, but it can be that little extra difference. Sanshou/sanda is still very much point based in that only what lands seems to affect scoring. I think ring dominance should not be a deciding factor in a fight; meaning it should only come into play if all # of landed strikes are equal. A guy shouldn't be dinged for running if he's still teeing off on the other fighter. So I can see benefits to chinese scoring here.

****, just wrote a long a.ss response but lost it before posting. in short, agreed wholly. mainly regarding the legacy of amatuer sanda technique/tactics and rule set (e.g, 2 consecutive rounds winning bout, use of leitai etc) disadvantaging the Chinese against the Thais. Also how it's only really been since 'Sanda Wang' that they've really fought in the boxing ring. With that in mind, in the last 10 years they've come light years, and with the current k1-fusion rules they are mucking around with in the south, should soon see them catch up. Also agreed on Kaoklai's sloppiness, plus added a few comments regarding sloppiness in muay thai 'boxing' overall (though certainly not as much in the current generation, many of which are also competitive amateur and even pro boxers alongside muay thai careers)...

Bt

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irb8cJ3lRgE

spinning back fist messed him up at 3:32!!!

[Pork Chop]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irb8cJ3lRgE

spinning back fist messed him up at 3:32!!!

guess you missed this convo the first time around
....and the clubbing forearm to the back of the head that actually put him down.

[hskwarrior]

someone posted that already?
oh i didn't miss that strike...saw it

[Pork Chop]

did you miss the soccer kick on the way down as well?

yah this was posted on another subforum (mma one i believe).

that was lamsongkrom chuwatana getting KOed btw.
he had just been KOed 3 weeks prior in France by lidon, yodsenklai knocked him out a year earlier, dude's 3-5 since 11/08, 8-8 over the last 3 years; hardly unbeatable.

thais are pretty indifferent about these contests by now, regardless of what the chinese papers were saying about "thai team challenging shaolin".

lamsongkrom's own coach was quoted on mymuaythai.com as saying the judging was dirty as heck, but wasn't too upset about it - merely a paycheck.

they understand that they are going in against a stacked deck...

fyi
on top of all the unofficial monkey business, ie:
- the ref jumping in to save any chinese fighter who looks to be in trouble
- the ref calling "break" any time the thai is about to score a throw, in effect nullifying it
- illegal forearm blows to the back of the head being allowed if done by chinese
- permitting a fighter to continue to punch an opponent tied up in the ropes if done by a chinese
- completely arbitrary scoring that always favors the chinese
- thai knockdowns of chinese are not scored

the official rules included the following:
- no knees to the head
- amateur style scoring where points are scored, regardless of damage
- throwing rules such that chinese throws count more than thai throws
- throws score 3 times the points of strikes

the chinese have only made 1 attempt to fight thai rules in Thailand.
they fought on the kings cup in 2002 and lost to the Thais 4 to 1

meanwhile you had guys like buakaw going over there and absolutely destroying guys like sun tao.

i like san da
i came up in sanda/san shou
but these events are leaving a bad taste in my mouth
so much bloody politics and favoritism that i've kinda stopped being a fan of the mainland variety; i'd rather just watch pure muay thai or k1-max - not that either has flawless judging, but at it isn't that blatant.