What's wrong with sport fighting?

[Yum Cha]

As a southern practitioner, here is my problem with sport fighting, not big problem, little problem...

They say you fight like you train. We all agree on that I think.

When I face an opponent, I train a lot on engagement. Bull rush is one strategy, but not the only one. I like the set up. I like frustrating an opponent, playing possum and turning tide. setting traps.

When I look at him, I see red. Red spots in all the places I want to hit him. Like Nintendo, tracking multiple bogies concurrently.

I don't want to get hit at all. I try to create the lowest risk opportunity to attack, and simply fold on any engagement not to my advantage, to put it in the simplest terms.
Very few people you can't avoid for a few steps one way or the the other for a shift in weight or stance. (I'm not talking about taking the bus to Cleveland). When you do it tactually, not intuitively or emotionally, you get even better.

I look at it like a sword fight, domination and crease. Attack the attack and cut hard until there is no sense in cutting any further, or you fall, cut yourself.

Needless to say, this doesn't fit the engage, disengage, engage, disengage, wear down and conquer "give and take" of most sparring experiences, even though you may cycle through a number of attacks in reality.

The training is simply focused on engineering an advantage and attacking through.
The content of the attack is practically irrelevant, as the great skill is in the timing, and the positioning for a strong attack. I mean boxing and grappling distance, not kicking distance. Lots of balance attacking.

There is so much more on this topic, like delivering the techniques once you have the advantage, suffering defeat, how to make stuff that's supposed to work really work, how to engage multiple opponents, how recover from disadvantages in the lowest risk manner, it could go on forever. But single out this one idea.

Just that one single moment is what concerns me most.

So, how to capture that in sport? The Cut?
And don't think I haven't been in there swinging hard, and don't know how it goes.

And sorry, I think this is the ducks guts when it comes to MA. This is the mountaintop, and no, I make no claim to being on said mountain top, only that I can see it from down where I stand, way off in the distance. Miles away, lightyears. A Brazillion Lightyears.

Yes, it is probably a feeling of mastery comparable to the domination you feel grappling up a rookie who you can do with what you please, especially after he's been big-noting his mystical Kung Fu powers....

I'm saying, not the only game in town, just my game.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Personally I feel that your post reeks of theory and an attempt to overcompensate thinking as opposed to fighting. You cannot think you're way through a fight, at some point the instinct takes over and what and how you have trained will come out in your fighting skills.

While a game plan and strategy are certainly important tools of the trade regarding fighting, creating a jumble of thoughts resembling an Einstein theory without the brilliance is really not needed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have never been a fan of using sword work analogy when talking about H2H.
A sword is not a fist or foot or arm or leg.
One mistake VS a sword will get you killed or cut up real bad, one mistake VS a fist will get you KO'd or bruised, no biggie.
In almost any (trained) hand, a single well placed sword strike can kill, and in almost any trained hand, a single well placed strike will KO or incapaciate, but almost never kill.
As such, the fighting methodology is different, room for error is different, while I have never been a fan of "trading" shots, it is feasable in H2H and is NOT feasable in Sword work.

All that aside, I do NOT know anyone that trains and competes in sport fighting that is NOT aware of its limitations, I do however know too many that don't compete or train in sport combat that have no clue of its vast benefits.

I never was one to fight like you described, I went in, hunt my prey down and took them out.
However, when you fight people that are trained to fight also you notice that they do NOT always do what you want them too, LOL !
And as such, in the context of a even match, you must have strategy and employ it and it may take rounds to do it.

Put me in the ring, any rules, with a guy that is inferior and I will take him out in seconds, but make him my "equal" and it will take a lot more than that.

That is just the reality of fighting someone that is trained.

[t_niehoff]

As a southern practitioner, here is my problem with sport fighting, not big problem, little problem...

They say you fight like you train. We all agree on that I think.

And train like you fight -- in other words, your training (practice) and fighting (doing) should correspond, since you only get good at what you practice.

When I face an opponent, I train a lot on engagement. Bull rush is one strategy, but not the only one. I like the set up. I like frustrating an opponent, playing possum and turning tide. setting traps.

When I look at him, I see red. Red spots in all the places I want to hit him. Like Nintendo, tracking multiple bogies concurrently.

I don't want to get hit at all. I try to create the lowest risk opportunity to attack, and simply fold on any engagement not to my advantage, to put it in the simplest terms.
Very few people you can't avoid for a few steps one way or the the other for a shift in weight or stance. (I'm not talking about taking the bus to Cleveland). When you do it tactually, not intuitively or emotionally, you get even better.

I look at it like a sword fight, domination and crease. Attack the attack and cut hard until there is no sense in cutting any further, or you fall, cut yourself.

Needless to say, this doesn't fit the engage, disengage, engage, disengage, wear down and conquer "give and take" of most sparring experiences, even though you may cycle through a number of attacks in reality.

What you are describing is the difference between theory (how you would like the fight to be) and reality (how the fight really is). There is nothing stopping anyone from trying just about any tactic or strategy or approach in sport fighting. If someone thinks (theory) they should just charge in and overwhelm their opponent, then try it -- see if it works. In most cases, if you do that and you do it against competent fighters, you'll quickly see the limitations and problems with your theory and why sport fighters aren't already using it (since they tend to go with what has already proved to be effective).

Sport fighters don't want to get hit, they'd like to end the fight quickly, they'd like to avoid give-and-take, etc. The problem is that's extremely hard to do particularly if you are facing someone who is a good, trained fighter.

The training is simply focused on engineering an advantage and attacking through.
The content of the attack is practically irrelevant, as the great skill is in the timing, and the positioning for a strong attack. I mean boxing and grappling distance, not kicking distance. Lots of balance attacking.

There is so much more on this topic, like delivering the techniques once you have the advantage, suffering defeat, how to make stuff that's supposed to work really work, how to engage multiple opponents, how recover from disadvantages in the lowest risk manner, it could go on forever. But single out this one idea.

Just that one single moment is what concerns me most.

So, how to capture that in sport? The Cut?
And don't think I haven't been in there swinging hard, and don't know how it goes.

And sorry, I think this is the ducks guts when it comes to MA. This is the mountaintop, and no, I make no claim to being on said mountain top, only that I can see it from down where I stand, way off in the distance. Miles away, lightyears. A Brazillion Lightyears.

Yes, it is probably a feeling of mastery comparable to the domination you feel grappling up a rookie who you can do with what you please, especially after he's been big-noting his mystical Kung Fu powers....

I'm saying, not the only game in town, just my game.

It's not your game if you aren't doing it. It may the your goal or objective of your training, but I think it is an unrealistic goal or objective. Instead of choosing our goals based on theory, it is much more productive to choose our goals based on evidence (what you, yourself, can actually see working in fighting).

[Pork Chop]

I am on the same page with the responses.
But I do think a lot of people get into bad habits in sport fighting, habits that even hurt their performance in the sport.

Was watching Joan Guzman fight in boxing the other night against a tall South African, Ali Funeka.
Joan's obviously used to fighting guys his own height or shorter; he likes setting up his combos by closing from the outside.
Against the tall fighter, the correct strategy, style-wise, was to close distance and stay there, tearing up the tall, lanky fighter on the inside.
In the beginning Joan was reluctant to adopt this strategy.
By the end of the fight it was already too late, Joan had taken too much damage, lost too much of his early explosiveness, and Funeka had figured out too much of his rhythm.
Joan lost the fight, but received a Draw as a phony gift decision.

So even in sport fighting, the in-out strategy is not ideal.

[pmosiun]

..........

[Yum Cha]

Before the court of public opinion, I cede the fact this is a theory. A principle, a mind set.

The reality is that while that may be what I ASPIRE to, in reality, SNAFU is not a common outcome. Thus, in practical terms, it does go round and round, like so many fights do superficially.

So, with a full mouthfull of reality, yes, its not a solution or a technique. No, I am not claiming any mastery of this principle. I just work with this thinking.

It gives an old man something to train towards that provides intellectual stimulation and a physical challenge. While you young blokes are out there blowing you knees, breaking your hands, and blooding your noses with the other like minded consenting adults.

What this 'mindset' does is just what any mindset does, to each his own...

The way I started playing this was sparring with the juniors. I give them several minutes to throw their stuff at me, until time was up and I'd start waiting for the opening, then do it. Sometimes a little nugget to the Solar plexus, a throw, big slap on the neck, throat grab, something to end it. It kinda grew from there with practice over the last 15-20years. So, It did evolve from experiences with live resisting opponents, granted, inferior.

Now, I'm not saying I beat down the juniors, but I try to offer resilience training to my si dai so as to harden them up. Granted, it is getting harder, and I don't dominate like I used to, but. I have to fight smarter.

Likewise, sparring with alternative style mates, its how I play, lots of quick clashes that usually tell. Kind of a submission by nudge and nod eye to eye.

So, dismiss this "Theory" as unrealistic, or perhaps impractical, but not as untested or undeveloped. This is Hakagure, straight up and down, with some Chinese chat about eye of the tiger, power of the dragon, etc, etc, etc..

To me, it is the best mindset, and best training orientation for self defence on the street, at my age, with my fitness. Its consistent with my style, and my training.

And let me pose one more question, and ask for your faith. If indeed, I was a good sport fighter from my teens to early 30's, and then added 20 years of Pak Mei from one of the best Masters still teaching, anywhere, do you think I might have picked up a trick or two?

This is inconsistent with sport fighting, but elements of sport fighting can be used to train it, for sure.

[t_niehoff]

Before the court of public opinion, I cede the fact this is a theory. A principle, a mind set.

The reality is that while that may be what I ASPIRE to, in reality, SNAFU is not a common outcome. Thus, in practical terms, it does go round and round, like so many fights do superficially.

So, with a full mouthfull of reality, yes, its not a solution or a technique. No, I am not claiming any mastery of this principle. I just work with this thinking.

Do you think it is helpful to aspire to some "principle" that doesn't represent reality?

It gives an old man something to train towards that provides intellectual stimulation and a physical challenge. While you young blokes are out there blowing you knees, breaking your hands, and blooding your noses with the other like minded consenting adults.

In other words, blokes training like a fighter. If someone doesn't train like a fighter, what makes you think they can develop good fighting skill?

What this 'mindset' does is just what any mindset does, to each his own...

The way I started playing this was sparring with the juniors. I give them several minutes to throw their stuff at me, until time was up and I'd start waiting for the opening, then do it. Sometimes a little nugget to the Solar plexus, a throw, big slap on the neck, throat grab, something to end it. It kinda grew from there with practice over the last 15-20years. So, It did evolve from experiences with live resisting opponents, granted, inferior.

And therein lies a HUGE problem IMO -- basing our views on dealing with the inferior and the unskilled. They can't show you what is good, what is sound, etc. You can only see that working with good, competent fighters.

Now, I'm not saying I beat down the juniors, but I try to offer resilience training to my si dai so as to harden them up. Granted, it is getting harder, and I don't dominate like I used to, but. I have to fight smarter.

Likewise, sparring with alternative style mates, its how I play, lots of quick clashes that usually tell. Kind of a submission by nudge and nod eye to eye.

So, dismiss this "Theory" as unrealistic, or perhaps impractical, but not as untested or undeveloped. This is Hakagure, straight up and down, with some Chinese chat about eye of the tiger, power of the dragon, etc, etc, etc..

Instead of chasing these things, why not just focus on developing sound, solid, competent fighting skills like sportfighters do?

To me, it is the best mindset, and best training orientation for self defence on the street, at my age, with my fitness. Its consistent with my style, and my training.

The problem is that the demands of fighting don't change with age, fitness level, style, etc. -- or because we may want them to. As one of my training partners once told me, the game of basketball doesn't change becase we get older. We have to train for the game.

And let me pose one more question, and ask for your faith. If indeed, I was a good sport fighter from my teens to early 30's, and then added 20 years of Pak Mei from one of the best Masters still teaching, anywhere, do you think I might have picked up a trick or two?

This is inconsistent with sport fighting, but elements of sport fighting can be used to train it, for sure.

If you seriously trained as a MMA sportfighter for 15 or more years, you wouldn't waste your time with Pak Mei. You'd be better than any TCMA master on the planet.

[Yum Cha]

Do you think it is helpful to aspire to some "principle" that doesn't represent reality?

In other words, blokes training like a fighter. If someone doesn't train like a fighter, what makes you think they can develop good fighting skill?

And therein lies a HUGE problem IMO -- basing our views on dealing with the inferior and the unskilled. They can't show you what is good, what is sound, etc. You can only see that working with good, competent fighters.

Instead of chasing these things, why not just focus on developing sound, solid, competent fighting skills like sportfighters do?

The problem is that the demands of fighting don't change with age, fitness level, style, etc. -- or because we may want them to. As one of my training partners once told me, the game of basketball doesn't change becase we get older. We have to train for the game.

If you seriously trained as a MMA sportfighter for 15 or more years, you wouldn't waste your time with Pak Mei. You'd be better than any TCMA master on the planet.

thanks for taking the time for such a considered answer, unfortunately, I can't answer to things I never said nor represented.

I never said I only ever fought inferiors, I never said I didn't have sportfighting skills or conversely was a 15 year MMA Veteran. I also never said I don't suffer fools gladly, however that is true enough.

If you expect me to expend any effort in answering you, at least read what I'm saying, or rant away with ad homs if it floats your boat. Doesn't make much difference to me.

[Frost]

As a southern practitioner, here is my problem with sport fighting, not big problem, little problem...

They say you fight like you train. We all agree on that I think.

When I face an opponent, I train a lot on engagement. Bull rush is one strategy, but not the only one. I like the set up. I like frustrating an opponent, playing possum and turning tide. setting traps.

When I look at him, I see red. Red spots in all the places I want to hit him. Like Nintendo, tracking multiple bogies concurrently.

I don't want to get hit at all. I try to create the lowest risk opportunity to attack, and simply fold on any engagement not to my advantage, to put it in the simplest terms.
Very few people you can't avoid for a few steps one way or the the other for a shift in weight or stance. (I'm not talking about taking the bus to Cleveland). When you do it tactually, not intuitively or emotionally, you get even better.

I look at it like a sword fight, domination and crease. Attack the attack and cut hard until there is no sense in cutting any further, or you fall, cut yourself.

Needless to say, this doesn't fit the engage, disengage, engage, disengage, wear down and conquer "give and take" of most sparring experiences, even though you may cycle through a number of attacks in reality.

The training is simply focused on engineering an advantage and attacking through.
The content of the attack is practically irrelevant, as the great skill is in the timing, and the positioning for a strong attack. I mean boxing and grappling distance, not kicking distance. Lots of balance attacking.

There is so much more on this topic, like delivering the techniques once you have the advantage, suffering defeat, how to make stuff that's supposed to work really work, how to engage multiple opponents, how recover from disadvantages in the lowest risk manner, it could go on forever. But single out this one idea.

Just that one single moment is what concerns me most.

So, how to capture that in sport? The Cut?
And don't think I haven't been in there swinging hard, and don't know how it goes.

And sorry, I think this is the ducks guts when it comes to MA. This is the mountaintop, and no, I make no claim to being on said mountain top, only that I can see it from down where I stand, way off in the distance. Miles away, lightyears. A Brazillion Lightyears.

Yes, it is probably a feeling of mastery comparable to the domination you feel grappling up a rookie who you can do with what you please, especially after he's been big-noting his mystical Kung Fu powers....

I'm saying, not the only game in town, just my game.

I think sanjuro ronin’s reply is the most succinct one here, you fight like you train and I don’t know any pro sport guys that trains to stand their and take blows for minute after minute, they train to hunt and destroy their opponent whilst taking as little punishment as possible. A few weeks ago I was helping one of our guys get ready for a Thai match, he lit me up like a Christmas tree and I hardly touched him he was so elusive, but come fight night he took some damage that is just the nature of the game they play when they are with an opponent of equal skill

Now you say you fight like you train, and this is true. I know I can knock someone out, choke them out and do serious harm to them whilst they are attempting to take my head off within what ever rule set we are fighting,

.

“Sometimes a little nugget to the Solar plexus, a throw, big slap on the neck, throat grab, something to end it. .

Here is the potential problem have you dropped your training partners with these techniques whilst they are trying to really hurt you? If so more power to you and there is no problem, but if not how do you truly know you can actually pull this off? Sport guys know their stuff works because they have done it for real within the rules they fight under

“Likewise, sparring with alternative style mates, its how I play, lots of quick clashes that usually tell. Kind of a submission by nudge and nod eye to eye.” .

Again do you go hard enough that you feel adreline kick in from the fear of real damage and do your strikes drop them and incapacitate them.

That’s what sport fighting gives you, the knowledge that what you do works against a skilled opponent, nothing more nothing less.

Do you have to do sanctioned sports fighting to be good? no, but you have to spar guys you do not know at close to or at full contact within rules you have both agreed (for safety reasons) this I suppose is by definition sports fighting

[Yum Cha]

I think sanjuro ronin’s reply is the most succinct one here, you fight like you train and I don’t know any pro sport guys that trains to stand their and take blows for minute after minute, they train to hunt and destroy their opponent whilst taking as little punishment as possible. A few weeks ago I was helping one of our guys get ready for a Thai match, he lit me up like a Christmas tree and I hardly touched him he was so elusive, but come fight night he took some damage that is just the nature of the game they play when they are with an opponent of equal skill

Now you say you fight like you train, and this is true. I know I can knock someone out, choke them out and do serious harm to them whilst they are attempting to take my head off within what ever rule set we are fighting,

.
Here is the potential problem have you dropped your training partners with these techniques whilst they are trying to really hurt you? If so more power to you and there is no problem, but if not how do you truly know you can actually pull this off? Sport guys know their stuff works because they have done it for real within the rules they fight under


Again do you go hard enough that you feel adreline kick in from the fear of real damage and do your strikes drop them and incapacitate them.

That’s what sport fighting gives you, the knowledge that what you do works against a skilled opponent, nothing more nothing less.

Do you have to do sanctioned sports fighting to be good? no, but you have to spar guys you do not know at close to or at full contact within rules you have both agreed (for safety reasons) this I suppose is by definition sports fighting

As most people know, there are things you just can't do if an opponent isn't coming at you with intent. Little flicks and jabs don't amount to much, its only when an opponent sets and commits power to a move that you can work a proper defence or attack. You know how it goes, a sparring session starts of light, heats up a bit, people begin to commit more to their moves. The good stuff only works then.

[Frost]

As most people know, there are things you just can't do if an opponent isn't coming at you with intent. Little flicks and jabs don't amount to much, its only when an opponent sets and commits power to a move that you can work a proper defence or attack. You know how it goes, a sparring session starts of light, heats up a bit, people begin to commit more to their moves. The good stuff only works then.

well if you are sparring hard against resisting opponents with real intent in their strikes then I can't really see a difference between what you are doing and what us sports guys do, other than perhaps those that step in a ring or cage step it up a notch and fight against people they do not know (which brings more adrenaline etc)

[SDJerry]

"Sport Fighting" is entertainment, that's it's purpose. I enjoy watching it and the competitors are great athletes!

You can argue that traditional methods are not realistic. In a self defense scenario, you are chosen as a victim. The attacker will pick you from the crowd for any number of reasons which make you more vulnerable. So what you need to do is have your classmates randomly attack you with a weapon while you are talking on your cell phone, with your hands full, and not paying attention. Have a couple of them do it at the same time too

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I want to know where the hell some of you live that you get jumped walking down the street so much. "Teh street", the mere mention of it strikes fear into the hearts of even the strongest men. Where glass, ****, vomit, and HIV infected needles are scattered about for grapplers to instantly die upon impact once they touch it

Oh, teh deadly street. Foolish is the one who knows not the deadly sins that it casts upon those so unlucky to feel it's wrath. I just nearly sh*it myself at the mere mention of it. So, to all you street fighters out there, you know, the ones who do nothing but forms, eye pokes, and the uber deadly testicle molesting rip, here it to you and all the dangerous glory you bask in

[Yum Cha]

well if you are sparring hard against resisting opponents with real intent in their strikes then I can't really see a difference between what you are doing and what us sports guys do, other than perhaps those that step in a ring or cage step it up a notch and fight against people they do not know (which brings more adrenaline etc)

That might be indeed a good point. Obviously, I'm not sinking a Fung Ahn Choi into anybody's eye, so there is a certain reservation. We have benign and brutal interpretations of many moves, which allows you to practice the gross skill, without making nasty. So, again, the two are alike in that manner. Sometimes you go easy, sometimes you go harder, fair enough I go a bit more easy these days, I feel the speed draining away Its not so much about me, but how to pass on the goods.

Again, it comes down to a mindfullness and the training towards that.


Iron Eagle,
We had a thread where everybody pretty much agreed that their street fights had been not a fraction as tough as their sport fights.

As potentially dangerous as they may be, in practical terms, they were not as difficult, of course, somebody gets an a$$ whopping somewhere and doesn't enjoy it.

I certainly am not dissing any grappling. I'm just not a grappler, even if I try to integrate what I do know when the need arises.