wing chun's core

[Hendrik]

Wing Chun core in the kuen kuit --- Come accept goes return, using silence to lead action.


This is an extremely important key for advance development and must be taken really seriously because this is the core of all applications.



Come accept goes return means totaly effortless or no resistance.

Silence is the nature state one will experience after one can quiet one's mind or not attached to thoughts ( notice it is NOT ATTACH instead of Suppress the mind to stop thinking.) Thus, it could create unlimited applications or creations.


This type of attainment is very advance. The level is even higher then those who have just seen the Buddha Nature or the original face.

See, those who just seen the Buddha Nature might know what is Buddha Nature however they still need to further fine tune. IE. the six patriach of Chan hide away after seen the Buddha nature for six teen years to fine tune himself.


Thus, with these type of Effortless and Silence attainment, this is real Dao.
It is real simple but unhausted. it is beyond shape and intention and center line and Qi.
It is the state of Let Go and Let God be.

The whole life is transform when one get there or even if one is just started to getting there.
This is a much superior state then handling the medirians or projection or strategy...etc because this is AS IT IS without using the Yee or intention which is post birth intellect.

[t_niehoff]

Happy Holidays, Hendrik!

For a different perspective:

The WCK kuit you refer to is "Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung" (stay as he comes, escort as he goes, charge in when contact is lost). Your "using silence to lead action" is not part of any WCK kuit (at least not in YM or YKS) that I'm aware of. The closest WCK kuit is "Yee Ching Jai Dong" (use stillness to overcome movement).

It is impossible to fight (to use your WCK) and not use effort (often all the effort you have!) or to not meet resistance (unless you sucker punch someone!). Any theory that presupposes otherwise is unrealistic.

A fighting method must be practical -- easily put into practice -- to be effective. It is hardly practical to need to attain buddhist enlightenment before making your art work.

As one of my training partners once observed: some people want to skip the part about learning to fight, and couldn't get out of a headlock, yet believe they can go directly to enlightened, warrior monk stage.

Can you get out of a headlock effortlessly and without resistance? Do you know of anyone who can?

[bennyvt]

we learnt it as recieve what comes, follow what goes, attack when disengaged. All things in vt have certain rules, use the least amount of force possibile in defence, be relaxed as possible. But sometimes the least amount needed is all your force. This is the problem with the whole be completly relaxed, dont use strength idea. The more strength you use the more muscle fibres activated meaning the muscle is tense. The stronger you are the less muscle fibres needed so you can be more relaxed.

[Vajramusti]

Good discussion of different perspectives... Hendrik, TN and Bennyvt- without ad hominem
remarks.

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

The closest WCK kuit is "Yee Ching Jai Dong" (use stillness to overcome movement).

I usually don’t talk WCK kuit; but only to my students…

That WCK kuit talks about defeating movements with positing and structure as dictated in the forms with no deviation, one should be highly aware of those two attributes when under pressure. When mastered, your thoughts or emotion become non-existent, then one can truly beat his opponent with just good timing…

I believe that is one of the most serious WCK kuit, and I follow it every time my wing chun doors are open…

Thanks for posting it…


Ali Rahim

[Hendrik]

Happy Holidays, Hendrik!

For a different perspective:

The WCK kuit you refer to is "Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung" (stay as he comes, escort as he goes, charge in when contact is lost). Your "using silence to lead action" is not part of any WCK kuit (at least not in YM or YKS) that I'm aware of. The closest WCK kuit is "Yee Ching Jai Dong" (use stillness to overcome movement).

It is impossible to fight (to use your WCK) and not use effort (often all the effort you have!) or to not meet resistance (unless you sucker punch someone!). Any theory that presupposes otherwise is unrealistic.

A fighting method must be practical -- easily put into practice -- to be effective. It is hardly practical to need to attain buddhist enlightenment before making your art work.

As one of my training partners once observed: some people want to skip the part about learning to fight, and couldn't get out of a headlock, yet believe they can go directly to enlightened, warrior monk stage.

Can you get out of a headlock effortlessly and without resistance? Do you know of anyone who can?

Happy Holiday Terence!


1, effortless means " flowing down stream instead of struggle going up stream" So it must not be mistatken as day dreaming or fantasying and it doesnt imply no training. but in fact much more details training then most.

2, Silence means the state beyond Thinking. meaning the thoughts doesnt cause the body to run habitual / automatic.


As for get out of a headlock, why one has to get in? why one has to get out? why....

there are millions of things could happen and one can do if one is not lock oneself into a mind set of there is only one thing one must do.

[t_niehoff]

Happy Holiday Terence!

Thanks, Hendrik!

1, effortless means " flowing down stream instead of struggle going up stream" So it must not be mistatken as day dreaming or fantasying and it doesnt imply no training. but in fact much more details training then most.

It only creates communication problems when we start redefining words. This is what "effortless" means: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/effortless
I think your metaphor of "flowing downstream instead of struggle going upstream" isn't really applicable to fighting (using our WCK). While there are instances where you can "go with the flow" (so to speak), there are a great many others where that simply isn't possible.

Skill can be defined as your ability to bring about a desired result with maximum certainty and using minimum effort and/or time. So what you are really talking about with "effortless" is simply part (minimum effort) of being skillful.

2, Silence means the state beyond Thinking. meaning the thoughts doesnt cause the body to run habitual / automatic.

I'm not certain I understand you. Habit or what you refer to as "automatic" are actions/behaviors that don't require conscious (thinking) intervention. In Maslow's heirarchy of learning (unconscious incimpetence, conscious competence, conscious competence,unconscious competence), for instance, unconscious competence is when we can perform our skill without thinking. That level is achieved through lots of deliberate practice (doing the activity so much that it becomes "second nature"). This is nothing unique to WCK (since Maslow obviously isn't talking only about learning in WCK).

As for get out of a headlock, why one has to get in? why one has to get out? why....

Do you think it wise to train for what is realistically likely to happen in fighting and for when things haven't gone our way?

there are millions of things could happen and one can do if one is not lock oneself into a mind set of there is only one thing one must do.

I don't know why you are talking about locking yourself into a mindset. My headlock example was to illustrate that what is primary is skill (the ability, for example, to get out of a headlock). Everything else, including using minimum effort to what you call "silence", is part and parcel of that skill. You can't develop those things -- effortlessness or silence -- apart from the skill: they only come from and through the skill-development process itself. All athletes recognize this.

[Hendrik]

It only creates communication problems when we start redefining words. -----


communication for me is communicating and not seeing problems but communicating to reach a mutual understanding.



In this case, I choose not to further communicate since we belongs to two different species. Thanks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The essence of every MA is "maximum result with minimal effort".

[t_niehoff]

It only creates communication problems when we start redefining words. -----


communication for me is communicating and not seeing problems but communicating to reach a mutual understanding.

Our ideas are communicated through words with a shared meaning. That shared meaning is essential, otherwise we would be talking about two different things. So when you redefine the meaning of words, all it does is obfuscate your intended meaning. And, I wouldn't think that advances your goal of reaching a "mutual understanding."

In this case, I choose not to further communicate since we belongs to two different species. Thanks.

You're welcome.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Interesting discussion.

I'm seeing two interpretations of effortlessness here - effortlessness of body (T Niehoff/Bennyvt) and effortlessness of mind (Hendrik/A. Rahim.) Neither really contradicts the other, in fact they're mighty complementary to one another.

I relate the effortlessness of mind in part to having no expectations/anticipations based on ego. If you expect or anticipate, you can get fooled and foiled. Think of the times when we've struggled with a lock or throw, or tried over and over to land a preferred technique, or expected our opponent to zig when instead they zagged. These mistakes say less about physical effort than mental effort, ie "forcing" the situation to fit your mindset rather than molding your mindset according to the situation.

BTW from the Daoist side of things, leave the survival mind be, just clear the path for it to thrive. This will help allow the body to exert the optimal effort needed at any moment.

[t_niehoff]

The essence of every MA is "maximum result with minimal effort".

Not only that, but it is the essence of any physical skill. No one tries to find ways to make their performance require more effort!

That's the point I was trying to make to Hendrik -- these things he talks about, "silence", "effortlessness", etc. are nothing unique, but are commonplace in every form of athletics.

[t_niehoff]

Interesting discussion.

I'm seeing two interpretations of effortlessness here - effortlessness of body (T Niehoff/Bennyvt) and effortlessness of mind (Hendrik/A. Rahim.) Neither really contradicts the other, in fact they're mighty complementary to one another.

Instead of looking at it that way, look at it as effortlessness of performance (of a skill). That effortlessness involves both mind and body, and it comes from deliberate practice -- and you can't have one without the other. They are not two separate things.

[kfson]

The closest WCK kuit is "Yee Ching Jai Dong" (use stillness to overcome movement).

I usually don’t talk WCK kuit; but only to my students…

That WCK kuit talks about defeating movements with positing and structure as dictated in the forms with no deviation, one should be highly aware of those two attributes when under pressure. When mastered, your thoughts or emotion become non-existent, then one can truly beat his opponent with just good timing…

I believe that is one of the most serious WCK kuit, and I follow it every time my wing chun doors are open…

Thanks for posting it…


Ali Rahim

السلام عليكم

Do you also use Tao principles of substantial and insubstantial?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

That's the point I was trying to make to Hendrik -- these things he talks about, "silence", "effortlessness", etc. are nothing unique, but are commonplace in every form of athletics.

I agree, they're not unique to Martial Arts, and most athletes (I'd say every professional athlete) develops a functional level of "silence" within their activity.

It's not every athlete who extends that into their life, though. No one's saying they have to, but I think Hendrik's saying they can.

One interesting sidestory is the Iron Man Triathlon and its counterparts. Many athletes participate in these events for the first time with competition in mind, then return over and over again for spiritual reasons; it's a not-oft talked about fact that many participants have mystical experiences during the competition.

I'd be curious to see how these people are engaging and contributing to society now compared to before they did the event.